Numbers 23:19: Big Problem

[friend of]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

This attack can be withstood easily from the Creed alone.

God is not a man, that is, the divine nature is not the human nature, the divine Persons are not human persons in themselves, and this is eternally true. This verse moreover has nothing to do with the Incarnation but is merely saying that God does not lie.

God the Father is not human. The Lord Jesus has two natures, He was begotten from the Father before all ages and begotten of the Blessed Virgin in time concerning His human nature.

God does not change, and that is why the Incarnation is not a change of the Eternal Word in Himself but an assumption of human nature.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The Word became flesh after He emptied Himself of certain divine attributes and rights so He could become a human, humbled even to death.

Phil 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He did this after the Father formed a body for Him:

Heb 10
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for Me.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Man is not God therefor he lies, God does not lie, Man sins thus he needs to repent GOD does not sin does not need to repent, Jesus is the product of the Holy Spirit and a created earthly mother, God keeps all his covenants where man breaks them, God is perfect

Hope that helps

 

[Semper-Fi]

John 17:5 (KJV)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

Maybe it could be reworded? .God is not a man that lies nor the son of a man....

 

[Neogaia777]

@friend of

It has to do with the mystery and story (and drama) of the Trinity, especially since Jesus clearly refers to himself as "The Son of Man", many, many times, but also claimed to be God, or like God, and equal to God, even God the Father, etc...

And it also has to do with how exactly Jesus reconciled us to God the Spirit or God in and of the OT also, of whom inspired that to be written, etc, who always is/was God the Spirit, etc...

And when you finally get it figured out, let me know, because I already have, etc...

God the Spirit is not a man, and never was, and that much is true, nor the Son of Man either, and that much is true, but it's not exactly true that He never ever changed in any kind of way at all whatsoever either, etc, because He did with Jesus, or after Jesus, etc...

And that is/was mainly toward us, etc, after and/or because of what Jesus did, etc...

A new and living way was adopted by that One (God the Spirit) afterward, etc...

It is part of the "love story", etc...

Which ended in Jesus broken body, and God the Spirit's broken heart, etc, and was reconciled or changed afterwards, etc...

To where both became different afterwards, etc...

Jesus never sinned and was never ever sinful, and he had nothing to at all ever "repent" of, etc, but only told us the truth, and showed us the truth, and so God the Spirit had to make it right afterwards, etc...

God Bless!

 

[friend of]

God the Father is not human.

What about in the old Testament when he put Moses in the cleft of a rock and walked past him? Surely God the Father was in human form, walking past the cleft on two legs, with moses observing the back of his head and frame. Surely God had a human body at this time, so why conclude that the Father is not also human?

 

[friend of]

God is not a man, that is, the divine nature is not the human nature,

Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Abaxvahl]

What about in the old Testament when he put Moses in the cleft of a rock and walked past him? Surely God the Father was in human form, walking past the cleft on two legs, with moses observing the back of his head and frame. Surely God had a human body at this time, so why conclude that the Father is not also human?

All theophanies are Christophanies, no one has seen God the Father at any time, but the Son has made Him known, as Christ Himself said. Moreover, this is a manifestation by God's power, not a sighting of the nature of God.

 

[com7fy8]

then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different.

In any case, Jesus has never changed from how God is.

And therefore, while He was in His body, Jesus did not sin. This is because Jesus has the character of God who can not do evil > James 1:13.

 

[Neogaia777]

@friend of

It has to do with the mystery and story (and drama) of the Trinity, especially since Jesus clearly refers to himself as "The Son of Man", many, many times, but also claimed to be God, or like God, and equal to God, even God the Father, etc...

And it also has to do with how exactly Jesus reconciled us to God the Spirit or God in and of the OT also, of whom inspired that to be written, etc, who always is/was God the Spirit, etc...

And when you finally get it figured out, let me know, because I already have, etc...

God the Spirit is not a man, and never was, and that much is true, nor the Son of Man either, and that much is true, but it's not exactly true that He never ever changed in any kind of way at all whatsoever either, etc, because He did with Jesus, or after Jesus, etc...

And that is/was mainly toward us, etc, after and/or because of what Jesus did, etc...

A new and living way was adopted by that One (God the Spirit) afterward, etc...

It is part of the "love story", etc...

Which ended in Jesus broken body, and God the Spirit's broken heart, etc, and was reconciled or changed afterwards, etc...

To where both became different afterwards, etc...

Jesus never sinned and was never ever sinful, and he had nothing to at all ever "repent" of, etc, but only told us the truth, and showed us the truth, and so God the Spirit had to make it right afterwards, etc...

God Bless!

Here is some more in some of my posts about it in this thread:

Fully God and Fully Man, how does that work?

God Bless!

 

[disciple Clint]

The Word became flesh after He emptied Himself of certain divine attributes and rights so He could become a human, humbled even to death.

Phil 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He did this after the Father formed a body for Him:

Heb 10
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for Me.

He emptied Himself of certain divine attributes and rights so He could become a human

No He did not. If you read the Gospel you will see Him using His divine powers several times to prove that in fact He is God. He humbled Himself but He gave up nothing. He was 100% God and 100% man. God does not change His powers.

 

[disciple Clint]

What about in the old Testament when he put Moses in the cleft of a rock and walked past him? Surely God the Father was in human form, walking past the cleft on two legs, with moses observing the back of his head and frame. Surely God had a human body at this time, so why conclude that the Father is not also human?

Because God is clearly Spirit. God can take form as is the case with a theophany. What is a theophany? What is a Christophany? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Neogaia777]

God the Spirit, or God in and of the OT of our Bibles, was Jesus biological Father, through Mary, very very first time this, or anything like this, had ever been done, ever, etc, and then after that, which was also a first, God the Spirit took up residence in a man (Jesus) for the very first time also, and also for the very first time also, voluntarily became restricted to that man's body for the very first time also, etc, so He was, or became, Jesus Spirit at that time, and there were not two Spirit's in Jesus, but God the Spirit was, or became, Jesus Spirit at that time, etc, the Spirit is also God's power, and always has been, and so Jesus had that power, etc, and God the Spirit chose to only work only through him only for a time, these were all "firsts" for God the Spirit, and before that He always dwelt outside of man, and in temples made in or by human hands, etc, so this was a whole "new way", which would then become "the (new) way" for all of those who would come after him (Jesus), and this is how we would face off with the world, and sin, and evil and wickedness and the devil afterwards, in the same way Jesus did (but did it first) until he (Jesus) should return from where he went to be with the Father for a time...

This became the plan to defeat the devil once and for all and finally set everything right for both of them (both God the Spirit and Jesus, etc)...

But some of it would not reach it's full and complete fulfillment until the future, etc...

But the enemy's fate became sealed, etc, and he is/has been unable to change it since that time, though it's probably not for lack of trying, etc...

I think he has known that his time has been short since that time, etc...

And you can see some of my other posts linked in post #12 for more information...

God Bless!

 

[SamInNi]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

This would be a poor effort to attack Scripture. God is drastically different to man who is essentially corrupt at heart and prone to deceit.

 

[disciple Clint]

God the Spirit, or God in and of the OT of our Bibles, was Jesus biological Father, through Mary, very very first time this, or anything like this, had ever been done, ever, etc, and then after that, which was also a first, God the Spirit took up residence in a man (Jesus) for the very first time also, and also for the very first time also, voluntarily became restricted to that man's body for the very first time also, etc, so He was, or became, Jesus Spirit at that time, and there were not two Spirit's in Jesus, but God the Spirit was, or became, Jesus Spirit at that time, etc, the Spirit is also God's power, and always has been, and so Jesus had that power, etc, and God the Spirit chose to only work only through him only for a time, these were all "firsts" for God the Spirit, and before that He always dwelt outside of man, and in temples made in or by human hands, etc, so this was a whole "new way", which would then become "the (new) way" for all of those who would come after him (Jesus), and this is how we would face off with the world, and sin, and evil and wickedness and the devil afterwards, in the same way Jesus did (but did it first) until he (Jesus) should return from where he went to be with the Father for a time...

This became the plan to defeat the devil once and for all and finally set everything right for both of them (both God the Spirit and Jesus, etc)...

But some of it would not reach it's full and complete fulfillment until the future, etc...

But the enemy's fate became sealed, etc, and he is/has been unable to change it since that time, though it's probably not for lack of trying, etc...

I think he has known that his time has been short since that time, etc...

And you can see some of my other posts linked in post #12 for more information...

God Bless!

He was, or became, Jesus Spirit at that time, and there were not two Spirit's in Jesus, but God the Spirit was, or became, Jesus Spirit at that time, etc, the Spirit is also God's power, and always has been, and so Jesus had that power,

Maybe I am not understanding what you are communication but you seem to be saying that Jesus was 100% man and 100% Holy Spirit. Jesus had a full human nature including a human spirit, His divine nature and spirit was that of the Word, the second person of the Trinity and not the Holy Spirit. This is clearly stated in the Prologue to John.

these were all "firsts" for God the Spirit, and before that He always dwelt outside of man, and in temples made in or by human hands

"The second aspect of the Spirit’s work in the Old Testament is indwelling, or filling. Here is where the major difference between the Spirit’s roles in the Old and New Testaments is apparent. The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20). When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. The Apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:13-14). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit “coming upon” the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. The indwelling was a sign of God’s favor upon that individual (in the case of David), and if God’s favor left an individual, the Spirit would depart (e.g., in Saul’s case in 1 Samuel 16:14). Finally, the Spirit “coming upon” an individual doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (e.g., Saul, Samson, and many of the judges). So, while in the New Testament the Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Spirit came upon certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task, irrespective of their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person."
What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? | GotQuestions.org
As I said maybe I am not understanding your post as you intended it.

 

[disciple Clint]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

The point of this Scripture is that God is not like man in that man lies and sins both of which man repents. God does not lie and does not sin therefore God is not like man. That is all that is being said.

 

[Neogaia777]

Maybe I am not understanding what you are communication but you seem to be saying that Jesus was 100% man and 100% Holy Spirit. Jesus had a full human nature including a human spirit, His divine nature and spirit was that of the Word, the second person of the Trinity and not the Holy Spirit. This is clearly stated in the Prologue to John.

Try not to get to hung up on who is/was first, second, or last, or whatever, etc, because in the end, all three will be co-equal, and co-eternal, and one, etc...

You may also want to see my posts in the other thread I linked here as well, so I don't have to be repeating myself maybe, etc...

Jesus claimed to be showing us the always number one and very always most highest "Father God", etc, and that God, goes even beyond God the Spirit, etc, or at least, did in and at and from the start, etc, again, see what I linked, and read them first before I say anything more, OK, etc...

The second aspect of the Spirit’s work in the Old Testament is indwelling, or filling. Here is where the major difference between the Spirit’s roles in the Old and New Testaments is apparent. The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20). When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. The Apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:13-14). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit “coming upon” the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. The indwelling was a sign of God’s favor upon that individual (in the case of David), and if God’s favor left an individual, the Spirit would depart (e.g., in Saul’s case in 1 Samuel 16:14). Finally, the Spirit “coming upon” an individual doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (e.g., Saul, Samson, and many of the judges). So, while in the New Testament the Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Spirit came upon certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task, irrespective of their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person."
What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? | GotQuestions.org
As I said maybe I am not understanding your post as you intended it.

Misunderstanding is common, but as for what you just said, yes, I purposely chose to leave that part out for the moment, didn't want to add to the "misunderstandings" or confusion, etc, there is enough there as it is, etc, but God in the OT did temporarily indwell people at certain times, and I think it might have been "in the moment" maybe, etc, but I chose to leave that part out for now on purpose, and for that I do apologize...

I thought about trying to say something about it, but then reconsidered and left it out for now, as the most important thing to me in that post was, well, discussing what I discussed, and also the now new way that started with Jesus Christ primarily, and how that came to be/happened, or came to be, and how it is still supposed to be the now "new way" now with the rest of us still, etc...

So, sorry about that, etc...

And I also wanted to discuss how the Spirit is God's power also, etc, and always was also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I do this with a lot of things pretty commonly, leave certain things, certain details, out sometimes, especially if it is only going to only most probably just add to the misunderstandings or confusion only, etc, and has very little to do with, in the moment, what I am really trying to say, or what I really want to try and get across the most at the time, or in that moment, etc, which I will carefully evaluate and "weigh" in that moment, etc...

And for that, I do apologize, etc...

It's very difficult to include "every single little thing" without losing something on the audience with the rest, etc...

Something I am still learning, etc...

God Bless!