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Numbers 15
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zaksmummy
Senior Member
There was a programme on TV a couple of months ago about an African tribe who always claimed to be of Jewish descent, practised Jewish customs and wouldnt allow marriage with other tribes, wore tallit, killed animal in a kosher manner etc.
No one apparently believed them until they tested their genetics, and lo and behold, they are Jewish. Cant remember the name of the tribe but the live on the border with Zimbabwe.
The programme was actually about what they claimed was the Ark of the Covenent, I wasnt convinced about that, but the rest was quite interesting.
No one apparently believed them until they tested their genetics, and lo and behold, they are Jewish. Cant remember the name of the tribe but the live on the border with Zimbabwe.
The programme was actually about what they claimed was the Ark of the Covenent, I wasnt convinced about that, but the rest was quite interesting.
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And, of course, there are the Marronos peoples in Spain - forced to become Christians but, secretly, never gave up their Jewishness and, in fact, became quite adept at holding the two together and, sometimes, finding new meaning in aspects of both when used alongside the other.
Anyway the Jewish Study Bible seems to indicate that the text in question was meant for the foreigners with the Israelites at Pesach - those who wanted to celebrate the Feast in reality had to be circumcised and, in so doing, it made them equal partners with the Jews (there were no Rabbis to insist on a course of theological and linguistic training, then!).
Of course, there was, then, no sense of the Torah (or the other parts of Scripture), either, as we now have so it is rather hard to read forward with that text as some sort of defining base. Scripture must be weighed as a totality - but in doing that we walk into confusion because there are texts that would support the Exodus text (and many would quote Romans 11:17 for example), but the interpretation of some other texts might be construed as giving the opposite view!
Then there are those of us who have Jewish blood in our genealogy but if it is not our mother or grandmother then it gets a little difficult; in my case it was in the 1700's so it is well and truly diluted now.
It is an horrendously difficult subject as someone has already said.
Anyway the Jewish Study Bible seems to indicate that the text in question was meant for the foreigners with the Israelites at Pesach - those who wanted to celebrate the Feast in reality had to be circumcised and, in so doing, it made them equal partners with the Jews (there were no Rabbis to insist on a course of theological and linguistic training, then!).
Of course, there was, then, no sense of the Torah (or the other parts of Scripture), either, as we now have so it is rather hard to read forward with that text as some sort of defining base. Scripture must be weighed as a totality - but in doing that we walk into confusion because there are texts that would support the Exodus text (and many would quote Romans 11:17 for example), but the interpretation of some other texts might be construed as giving the opposite view!
Then there are those of us who have Jewish blood in our genealogy but if it is not our mother or grandmother then it gets a little difficult; in my case it was in the 1700's so it is well and truly diluted now.
It is an horrendously difficult subject as someone has already said.
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Eben I think we loose site of the issue - anyone who wants to follow messiah must count the cost. Will a wanna be believer be willing to die? You don't have to be native born to be in this situation.
We are admonished to be grafted in. If you take a cultivated rose and slip a wild rose and graft the wild to the cultivated what should the grafted look like?
Does this apply only to native or to grafted as well? By the way if you are grafted in there is no shame to be who you are
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anisavta
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- May 25, 2008
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I agree fully with the grafted in as it is stated in Romans 11.
I think my point and concern is for all who say they are now Israel with all the rights and privileges but don't want to be responsible for the curses too. If we obey His commandments we partake of His blessings. If we do not obey we receive the curses. Cause and effect. Act and circumstance.
I think my point and concern is for all who say they are now Israel with all the rights and privileges but don't want to be responsible for the curses too. If we obey His commandments we partake of His blessings. If we do not obey we receive the curses. Cause and effect. Act and circumstance.
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- Apr 12, 2008
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I said ealier that it is believed that Britian and America are Ephraim and Manasseh. This idea comes from Jacob's prophesy.
Gen 48:19 ... he (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Britian has lost it's power now, but when it had it, it was a multitude of nations. Britian ruled the world, with his brother America.
Also if you study the monarchal history of Britian, their customs and so on, you will find that is Israelitish. Also British is a hebrew word meaning covenant man.
Gen 48:19 ... he (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Britian has lost it's power now, but when it had it, it was a multitude of nations. Britian ruled the world, with his brother America.
Also if you study the monarchal history of Britian, their customs and so on, you will find that is Israelitish. Also British is a hebrew word meaning covenant man.
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- Apr 12, 2008
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And if I am wrong, then were in all history was Ephraim a multitude of nations?
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Eben Abram
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Shalom Alecheim
One major Problem with Anglo_Israelism also is frankly G-d speaking.
If you look in the Book of Revelation almost everyone accepts it is future event.
When you look in it, look up who the 144,000 are and where they are from.
It does not say America or Europe and I know European Pride and American thinks we are important, Not in G-ds eyes.
We are who we are and that is all we are, and at barely 200 yrs old I would think no one would think we have even matured yet, there are nations far older...
But stay in Rev. look at what God says who is who.
Don't look now, it ain't You rope or me rica (bun intended)
Eben
One major Problem with Anglo_Israelism also is frankly G-d speaking.
If you look in the Book of Revelation almost everyone accepts it is future event.
When you look in it, look up who the 144,000 are and where they are from.
It does not say America or Europe and I know European Pride and American thinks we are important, Not in G-ds eyes.
We are who we are and that is all we are, and at barely 200 yrs old I would think no one would think we have even matured yet, there are nations far older...
But stay in Rev. look at what God says who is who.
Don't look now, it ain't You rope or me rica (bun intended)
Eben
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Perhaps you should read Philip Jenkins' The Next Christendom (the revised and expanded version) Oxford University Press 2007. You might get quite a shock!
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Eben Abram
Member
Shalom Alecheim
Tzi Tzi.
When a person asks Who can wear, that usually means the need or want of validation.
The same holds true of Who is a Jew.
Since the Fringe was designated many have added or taken from the "Traditions" ways to seperate and or segregate.
The idea is to Celebrate.
YOU Celebrate who you are, and what he has done, and how you and he relate to each other.
If you, in your time with Him, enjoy the Tzi Tzi, of course you can wear it and if you really needed a source of Jewish literature for a feeling of validation then yes, I could post it and others also that say no and others that say yes and all in Judaism, Not Messianic.
The Joy you have of your salvation must be your guide. If it is not, you will eventually think the black Chassid wear is really spiritual instead one of the most tragic mistakes made in history, choosing darkness as a color of faith.....
But you can and do seek the Lord G-d of Abraham and He can inspire you to dance, to sing, to celebrate and even designate a family fringe for your garments like the tribes once did.
Little do Americans often realize many OLD New England Traditions were birthed from Biblical and Jewish, like family shawls passed down from a grandmother that was HAND MADE, not Messianic Catalogue ordered.
Once you see the similarity you will surprised how G-d can inspire you to be as free to celebrate Him as the Messianic Movement once was and should be if we set our hearts and minds on Him to enjoy and not employ legalism rather than empowering ourselves to fly to the Source of the Tradition, Messiah Himself
Eben
Tzi Tzi.
When a person asks Who can wear, that usually means the need or want of validation.
The same holds true of Who is a Jew.
Since the Fringe was designated many have added or taken from the "Traditions" ways to seperate and or segregate.
The idea is to Celebrate.
YOU Celebrate who you are, and what he has done, and how you and he relate to each other.
If you, in your time with Him, enjoy the Tzi Tzi, of course you can wear it and if you really needed a source of Jewish literature for a feeling of validation then yes, I could post it and others also that say no and others that say yes and all in Judaism, Not Messianic.
The Joy you have of your salvation must be your guide. If it is not, you will eventually think the black Chassid wear is really spiritual instead one of the most tragic mistakes made in history, choosing darkness as a color of faith.....
But you can and do seek the Lord G-d of Abraham and He can inspire you to dance, to sing, to celebrate and even designate a family fringe for your garments like the tribes once did.
Little do Americans often realize many OLD New England Traditions were birthed from Biblical and Jewish, like family shawls passed down from a grandmother that was HAND MADE, not Messianic Catalogue ordered.
Once you see the similarity you will surprised how G-d can inspire you to be as free to celebrate Him as the Messianic Movement once was and should be if we set our hearts and minds on Him to enjoy and not employ legalism rather than empowering ourselves to fly to the Source of the Tradition, Messiah Himself
Eben
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