Nudism

[Clarity]

So what you are saying is that you have total disgust for something created by God, which He then proclaimed to be "very good".

God called nudity in the perfect garden of eden good but in our world god has called it something different.

Just because adam and eve were good before the fall (ie they were perfect) does that mean that people today are perfect?
Just because the animals were good and there weren't any carnivores does that mean that there are no carnivores today?
Just because Adam and Eve only ate fruit from trees does that mean that christians should become vegetarians?
Just because adam and eve were naked does that mean that christians today should walk around naked?



Just because something was good before the fall does not make it good after the fall. In fact many things that were good before the fall now became bad (including nudity).

Revelation 3
18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Isaiah 47
2 Take millstones and grind flour;
take off your veil.
Lift up your skirts, bare your legs,
and wade through the streams.
3 Your nakedness will be exposed
and your shame uncovered.
I will take vengeance;
I will spare no one."

Lamentations 1v8
Jerusalem has sinned greatly and so has become unclean. All who honored her despise her, for they have seen her nakedness; she herself groans and turns away.


Ezekiel 23v18
When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.

Ezekiel 23
28 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to hand you over to those you hate, to those you turned away from in disgust. 29 They will deal with you in hatred and take away everything you have worked for. They will leave you naked and bare, and the shame of your prostitution will be exposed. Your lewdness and promiscuity 30 have brought this upon you, because you lusted after the nations and defiled yourself with their idols.

Isaiah 20
4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared-to Egypt's shame.

Micah 1
11 Pass on in nakedness and shame,
you who live in Shaphir. [1]
Those who live in Zaanan [2]
will not come out.
Beth Ezel is in mourning;
its protection is taken from you

If it is shameful for Egypt and Shaphir to expose their nakedness why is it not shameful for naturists to expose their nakedness?

Ezekiel 16
35 " 'Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD ! 36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children's blood, 37 therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.

Nahum 3v5
"I am against you," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will lift your skirts over your face. I will show the nations your nakedness and the kingdoms your shame.

If nakedness is good why does god threaten to show the nations their nakedness as surely if nakedness was good it could not be used as a punishment?

Revelation 16v15
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."


How many times will have i have to quote these verses?
There is not a single reference to nakedness being good outside of eden in our sinful world.

 

[Clarity]

Interesting enough, if you have read the post listing the societal benefits of social non-sexual nudity (naturism), you might see that it could actually HELP PREVENT a brother or sister from stumbling. (I am still trying to locate the numerical statistics, for Clarity's benefit, but the information is "off-line", so it will involve trips to several libraries and book stores.)

As a society, we have tried to deal with the issues of "lust" and "body shame" by constantly throwing more and more coverings on top of it. This has only proved to be counter-productive to the point that lust, extra-marital sex, perverse sex and pronography are at epidemic proportions. This has also lead to the destruction of the family unit through divorce and separation. The problem is that, now, when we see a naked human, we over-react because it is foriegn to our "normal" lives.

Naturism is not the solution we are told to ask god when we have problems with lust

James 4
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" (1 Corinthians 10:13
Remember god will give you the strength to overcome your habit if you ask him and pray about it.

2 Thessalonians 3
3But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

Hebrews 13
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."[1] 6So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"[2]
7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them. 10We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

1 corinthians 6v18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

The biblical answer to lust is to stay away from sources that cause it and ask for gods help and if someone with a lust problem becomes a nudist it is almost certainly going to cause him to lust when he sees naked people walking about and may make the problem worse rather than better.

PS did you know that 40% of naturists are swingers from a survey carried out by a naturist magazine and naturism could lead someone with lust problems to turn to swinging if he came into contact with these nudists.

(stat from www.themarriagebed.com)

 

[Johnnz]

That site has outdated and biased information. To check out this statement contact the editor of Fig Leaf Forum for his article on this site.

I will also contact him re having it posted here.

John
NZ

 

[Risen Tree]

Wow. This thread is still going.

Prediction: A few decades from now, nudism will become the hot topic in morality debates. After all, nude recreation is exploding in the States, and it's only a matter of time before the issue takes center stage.

 

[Natman]

Naturism is not the solution we are told to ask god when we have problems with lust

Absolutely. The VERY FIRST place we need to go is on our knees, in prayer the God, no matter what our problems are, be they lust, alcohol or drug abuse, adultery, sexual immorality or perversion, pornography, self-control, anger or over or under eating... you name it. I simply gave you the results of many clinical studies that show the positive affects of living openly, honestly and naked as God made us... and they are many.

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Yes. And the way out that God showed me was through realizing WHAT and WHO I am and WHAT and WHO EVERYONE is, His very own creation, made in His likeness, naked and unashamed, a sinner washed in the blood of His Son and filled with the power of His Holy Spirit. Because of the knowledge of WHO He is and the restored relationship I have with Him, I no longer look at women as "objects" to be used and lusted over, but as God's creatures, specifically designed either for Him alone, or for Him and someone else.

If I use your logic, I better never associate with someone that makes more money than I do because I might lust after their money. I had better buy the biggest house in the neighborhood otherwise I might lust after or covet my neighbors house. I should never associate with people that are physically more appealing than I am because I might be tempted to do them harm so that I can be the best looking. I better not get involved in community service because someone else could get more recognition that I do, and that might make me jealous.

Do you see where I am going with this?

The problem is not in seeing or hanging around with naked people, the problem is in not realizing WHO and WHAT they are in the eyes of God.

I guarantee that FAR MORE LUST and SEXUAL IMMORALITY occurs between people that are fully-clothed, than within the vast majority of naturist groups.

Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral."

Once again, this verse pertains to "adultery" and "sexual immorallity", not "nakedness". It does not state that one leads to the other. It states that "sex" is to be kept within marriage... PERIOD!

PS did you know that 40% of naturists are swingers from a survey carried out by a naturist magazine and naturism could lead someone with lust problems to turn to swinging if he came into contact with these nudists.
(stat from www.themarriagebed.com)[/QUOTE]

I have never come across this "40%" statistic before except on the website you referred to, and that appears to be only one man's estimate. Based on the naturists that I have talked to, most naturist clubs and associations in America and Europe vehemently denounce "swinging" or any form of overt sexual activity (including common male arrousal) as cause for IMMEDIATE and PERMANANT expulsion. (This is not to say that such activity does not occur off-grounds.) Most try very hard to present a friendly, family oriented, comfortable atmosphere. This doesn't even include the huge and growing number of families that practice naturism around the house.

Son-cerly,
Nate

 

[Johnnz]

Lust has often been mentioned on this thread. Why is the word ‘lust’ so often associated only with sexual issues?



We can lust sexually. Agreed.

We lust over food when we overeat. Are their no overweight Christians where overeating is the cause? If there is, then is some ‘lust’ for food OK?

We want the good things of life – nice home, cars, computers etc. We enjoy eating out, nice clothes and so on. Is the ‘lust of the flesh’ and ‘the pride of life’ quite acceptable in such cases?



The list can go on. The point I wish to make is quite simple. Have we have overemphasized sexual lust while largely ignoring other equally wrong ones?



John

NZ

 

[Clarity]

If I use your logic, I better never associate with someone that makes more money than I do because I might lust after their money. I had better buy the biggest house in the neighborhood otherwise I might lust after or covet my neighbors house. I should never associate with people that are physically more appealing than I am because I might be tempted to do them harm so that I can be the best looking. I better not get involved in community service because someone else could get more recognition that I do, and that might make me jealous.

Do you see where I am going with this?

The problem is not in seeing or hanging around with naked people, the problem is in not realizing WHO and WHAT they are in the eyes of God.

I have not quoted a single verse that mentions lust in my post. Although i do not think your argument works as the fact that these other things can happen does not mean that we can ignore the command not to put stumbling blocks in our brothers way. The fact is that the bible commands us to work hard and if we are rich/successful there is nothing wrong with this also we cannot help it if we are born beautiful we have no choice and the fact is you have taken this command to an extreme beyond what is suggested by other verses. However the fact remains that we could very easily wear clothes to stop other people lusting and the bible has commanded us to dress modestly in timothy however there is no such command not to be rich/successful/beautiful as when applying this command we need to differentiate between what can easily be changed to stop our brother stumbling(eg nudity) and what it is hard/impossible/unbiblical to stop our brother stumbling (eg good looks, success) we need to find a balance between ignoring this command and taking it to unreasonable extremes.

Yes. And the way out that God showed me was through realizing WHAT and WHO I am and WHAT and WHO EVERYONE is, His very own creation, made in His likeness, naked and unashamed, a sinner washed in the blood of His Son and filled with the power of His Holy Spirit. Because of the knowledge of WHO He is and the restored relationship I have with Him, I no longer look at women as "objects" to be used and lusted over, but as God's creatures, specifically designed either for Him alone, or for Him and someone else.

The fact is you can see what they are in the eyes of god without walking around naked and I have already talked about how we are not created naked and unashamed. If they are Gods creatures and are to be respected why do you walk around naked like the other animals? The fact that humans wear clothes is something that differentiates them from animals and walking about naked is a sign of shame in the bible and shows a lack of respect for the sexual organs and thus for sex compared to wearing clothes. To let another man see your wife naked is to dishonour marriage as the only time when naturism is acceptable is between a man and his wife.
I feel all that i am doing is repeating points that i have already made.

I guarantee that FAR MORE LUST and SEXUAL IMMORALITY occurs between people that are fully-clothed, than within the vast majority of naturist groups.

The fact is that it is impossible for you to tell if other people are lusting or not and sexual immorality is also hard to determine as it may go on in private and may not be admitted afterwards to anyone especially after considering my earlier statistic.

Lewis and Janda (1988) found a positive correlation between childhood exposure to nudity and adult sexual comfort. The authors point out, however, that some would see this as a reason to prevent childhood exposure to nudity, as their measures on comfort included acceptance of lifestyles that many would consider immoral or undesirable (such as premarital sex, or acceptance of homosexuality).

 

[crashedman]

[quoite] However the fact remains that we could very easily wear clothes to stop other people lusting and the bible has commanded us to dress modestly in timothy however there is no such command not to be rich/successful/beautiful as when applying this command we need to differentiate between what can easily be changed to stop our brother stumbling(eg nudity) and what it is hard/impossible/unbiblical to stop our brother stumbling (eg good looks, success) we need to find a balance between ignoring this command and taking it to unreasonable extremes.[/quote]

Clothes do not prevent lust. It is quite easy to see a fully dressed woman and fantasise about what she looks like naked and what it would be like to have sex with her, than to see a naked married woman and not have any sexual feelings or thoughts for her whatsoever.

What can be more modest than being clothed only in the righteousness of Jesus Christ?

Do you think for example that European men and tribal men are more immoral and un-Christian than the WASP because female nakedness is more common in their culture?

In those countries, rape, adultery, drug and alcohol abuse and teenage pregnancies are lower than in America, because of the greater social freedom about the body. Over in the States and Australia, I find it extremely sad that many young people, if you told them about naturism would say 'Oh, I'd need a few drinks down me before I can do that!'

"The fact is you can see what they are in the eyes of god without walking around naked and I have already talked about how we are not created naked and unashamed."

Codswallop!! Do babies cover up their genitals the minute they exit the womb and start screaming to be wrapped up? YOUR God might, but mine doesn't.

"If they are Gods creatures and are to be respected why do you walk around naked like the other animals? The fact that humans wear clothes is something that differentiates them from animals and walking about naked is a sign of shame in the bible and shows a lack of respect for the sexual organs and thus for sex compared to wearing clothes."

Should we clothe animals to protect people who are into bestiality from lusting after them as well?

We *are* animals, not automatons.
Respect for the sexual organs means giving them the same amount of attention that we give other body parts.

Nudists aren't obessed with their penis sizes, and their women don't go around making snide comments about them or saying to their partners "geez, I wish that it was bigger". Nobody does that at the nudist club I go to, or obsess over the women's breasts.

"To let another man see your wife naked is to dishonour marriage as the only time when naturism is acceptable is between a man and his wife.
I feel all that i am doing is repeating points that i have already made."

Rubbish! Can you show me where in the Bible it states this??

With that logic, then you would not let the family GP, a gynecologist, a plastic surgeon, a massage therapist or a professional photographer who specialises in beauty, or fine art nudes near her.

"The fact is that it is impossible for you to tell if other people are lusting or not and sexual immorality is also hard to determine as it may go on in private and may not be admitted afterwards to anyone especially after considering my earlier statistic."

I have seen married women nude before and have never had any desire to have sex with them. There have been a few women that I have had a few crushes on in my life, but after they got married I just didn't take any notice of them anymore.


Crashedman

 

[crashedman]

God called nudity in the perfect garden of eden good but in our world god has called it something different.

Just because adam and eve were good before the fall (ie they were perfect) does that mean that people today are perfect?
Just because the animals were good and there weren't any carnivores does that mean that there are no carnivores today?
Just because Adam and Eve only ate fruit from trees does that mean that christians should become vegetarians?
Just because adam and eve were naked does that mean that christians today should walk around naked?

We didn't hear about any other of A&E's daily lives after Cain & Abel were born, but Adam lived to a ripe old age of 930 years.

God created carnivorous animals like the Tyrannosaurus Rex, sharks, the Leviathan, sea monsters etc. - and said that it was good. There are animals who are carnivorous by nature, unless they are given aversion therapy when they are babies.

In fact, more Christians are becoming vegetarians these days, especially with the health related dangers of eating meat, fish and eggs coming to the fore. Have a look at these sites:

http://www.jesus-online.com and http://www.all-creatures.org

I see no reason why Christians shouldn't walk around naked. After all, I believe the only property that we really own at the end of the day is our bodies.

"Just because something was good before the fall does not make it good after the fall. In fact many things that were good before the fall now became bad (including nudity)."

Didn't Jesus come to earth to restore mankind to what it was like before the fall?

Revelation 3
18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

The nakedness is not literal. It was an allegorical meaning for the fact that the church was at a spiritual low and not providing for its members properly.

Isaiah 47
2 Take millstones and grind flour;
take off your veil.
Lift up your skirts, bare your legs,
and wade through the streams.
3 Your nakedness will be exposed
and your shame uncovered.
I will take vengeance;
I will spare no one."

What has this to do with naturism?

Lamentations 1v8
Jerusalem has sinned greatly and so has become unclean. All who honored her despise her, for they have seen her nakedness; she herself groans and turns away.

Jerusalem is not a woman, but a city. Maybe the nakedness showed that the people of the city had an STD.

I would find a diseased penis or vagina very unsightly, and it is only right for a person with such a disease not to spread it or have his genitals in contact with another human being.

If it is shameful for Egypt and Shaphir to expose their nakedness why is it not shameful for naturists to expose their nakedness?

Because the majority of naturists don't come from Egypt or Shaphir, that's why!


Crashedman

 

[Shane Roach]

"These are murmerers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great, swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; how that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their ungodly lusts.

These be the who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

Jude 16-23

 

[Shane Roach]

Didn't Jesus come to earth to restore mankind to what it was like before the fall?

No

Revelation 3
18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

The nakedness is not literal. It was an allegorical meaning for the fact that the church was at a spiritual low and not providing for its members properly.

The allegory would be rather innefective if the concept of shamefull nakedness were not understood.

Isaiah 47
2 Take millstones and grind flour;
take off your veil.
Lift up your skirts, bare your legs,
and wade through the streams.
3 Your nakedness will be exposed
and your shame uncovered.
I will take vengeance;
I will spare no one."

What has this to do with naturism?

That nakendness is a sin and shamefull.

Lamentations 1v8
Jerusalem has sinned greatly and so has become unclean. All who honored her despise her, for they have seen her nakedness; she herself groans and turns away.

Jerusalem is not a woman, but a city. Maybe the nakedness showed that the people of the city had an STD.

I would find a diseased penis or vagina very unsightly, and it is only right for a person with such a disease not to spread it or have his genitals in contact with another human being.

Actually it's just one more of many examples showing clearly that public nakedness is normally shamefull. No need to stretch the metaphor as far as you have.

 

[immersedingrace]

The allegory would be rather innefective if the concept of shamefull nakedness were not understood.

The same can be said for Adam and Eve feeling shame in the garden. Yes, that shame is metaphorical for our nakedness and shame in our sin, BUT, if nakedness weren't a sin, the metaphor would fall flat.

Blessings

 

[josephlee24]

Romans 14:21 says:
"It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak." -NewKJV
Public nudity may cause some of the above so it probably isn't good.

 

[Natman]

The fact is you can see what they are in the eyes of god without walking around naked and I have already talked about how we are not created naked and unashamed.

This is a point I vehemently disagree with you on. Look at any child. They are UNASHAMED of their nakedness until we, as parents, TEACH them to be shamefull of their bodies

The fact is that it is impossible for you to tell if other people are lusting or not and sexual immorality is also hard to determine as it may go on in private and may not be admitted afterwards to anyone especially after considering my earlier statistic.

Come ON! Look at the incidence of extramarital affairs, adultery, rape. This almost always starts with both parties fully clothed. The desire (lust) begins in the MIND and in the HEART LONG before the first article of clothing is ever removed. Statistics (recorded occurances) are alarming. Estimates (statistics plus estimates of unrecorded occurances) are far worse. Clothing has done NOTHING to eliminate the problem, and as I have tried to show through the list of studies, has probably actually inflamed the problem to the point of crisis.

Lewis and Janda (1988) found a positive correlation between childhood exposure to nudity and adult sexual comfort. The authors point out, however, that some would see this as a reason to prevent childhood exposure to nudity, as their measures on comfort included acceptance of lifestyles that many would consider immoral or undesirable (such as premarital sex, or acceptance of homosexuality).

The KEY WORD in this summary is "SOME" would see this as a reason...

That "SOME" includes those that cannot separate "nakedness" and "sex" in their minds.

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[Natman]

Didn't Jesus come to earth to restore mankind to what it was like before the fall? No

Really? What was the purpose of Jesus' life, death and resurection if not to restore us to our ORIGINAL relationship with God the Father? Did Jesus only do HALF of the job?

The allegory would be rather innefective if the concept of shamefull nakedness were not understood.

Rev 3:18,Lam 1:8 and Isa 47 all use "nakedness" to describe the "exposure" of sin, NOT the sin of "exposure".

When we are "naked" before th Lord, He sees ALL of our sin. It is IMPOSSIBLE to HIDE ANYTHING from God... EVER.

No need to stretch the metaphor as far as you have.

I wonder who is streaching what here.

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[Clarity]

This is a point I vehemently disagree with you on. Look at any child. They are UNASHAMED of their nakedness until we, as parents, TEACH them to be shamefull of their bodies

Just because it is natural does not make it right just because a child cries for attention or steals a biscuit from the biscuit tin and doesn't feel ashamed of these things does not make it right because in the same way that just because you are not ashamed of nakedness does not make it right the fact is that many children will feel very little shame if they sin it is only after they are told that it is wrong or are punished that they begin to feel ashamed. The only way we can define sin is using the bible not the feelings of children or nudists.

Really? What was the purpose of Jesus' life, death and resurection if not to restore us to our ORIGINAL relationship with God the Father? Did Jesus only do HALF of the job?

Yes the job will only be complete,and our relationship will not be restored, until we go to heaven and until then there will still be sin in the lives of believers unlike in eden.

Should we clothe animals to protect people who are into bestiality from lusting after them as well?

No because an animal being naked is not shameful(unlike a human) and it would be completely impractical and there is no command or examples of this occurring in the bible and remember lusting after animals is wrong just as lusting after a woman is wrong.

To dismiss my verses as allegorical is self refuting as the verses about adam and eve being naked and this being good are allegorical as well.(see my post pg41)

Come ON! Look at the incidence of extramarital affairs, adultery, rape. This almost always starts with both parties fully clothed. The desire (lust) begins in the MIND and in the HEART LONG before the first article of clothing is ever removed. Statistics (recorded occurances) are alarming. Estimates (statistics plus estimates of unrecorded occurances) are far worse. Clothing has done NOTHING to eliminate the problem, and as I have tried to show through the list of studies, has probably actually inflamed the problem to the point of crisis.

This almost always starts with both parties fully clothed.
The reason for this is that people wear clothes in everyday life and there is only a tiny minority of naturists in the world. The fact is that extramarital affairs, adultery, rape have alot to do with other influences and virtually nothing to do with wearing clothes as 50-60 years ago they were alot lower at a time when people wore clothes and they have risen due to influences which certainly dont include the fact that people have started to wear clothes as this remains the same despite changing rates.Also you have failed to list a single study/stat to back up your point.

Clothes do not prevent lust. It is quite easy to see a fully dressed woman and fantasise about what she looks like naked and what it would be like to have sex with her, than to see a naked married woman and not have any sexual feelings or thoughts for her whatsoever.

If a woman is naked you have no need to fantasise about what she looks like naked you can see her and it leaves little to the imagination and it also becomes easier to get aroused by her body(some naturists have already admitted on this discussion that they get pleasure/sensual enjoyment/feelings of freedom from the nakedness of other people and see nothing wrong with this but deny it is sexual arousal/lust but call it appreciation) and fantasise about sex. It is also not just the lust that is the sin but nakedness is what we are discussing not lust and nakedness is shameful whether you lust or not.

 

[Clarity]

After all, I believe the only property that we really own at the end of the day is our bodies.

1 Cor 6
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

The fact is that we are not allowed to do whatever we want selfishly with our bodies as they belong to God and we will be held accountable for how we use them. Nakedness is not honouring god with your body but it is bringing shame to your body.

Rubbish! Can you show me where in the Bible it states this??

See my huge post page 40 that sums up alot of my findings.

There is an interesting article at this site use it to decide what sort of person you are Radical or neo biblical as it is insightful and really challenged me and it does have relevance to this debate as it underpins the topic being discussed. It is highlighting the different approaches that people take to the bible and what is the proper approach and in this debate I can see both approaches and I think the different approaches have led to the differing viewpoints.
http://www.antithesis.com/features/appealforradical.html

 

[Natman]

Just because it is natural does not make it right just because a child cries for attention or steals a biscuit from the biscuit tin and doesn't feel ashamed of these things does not make it right because in the same way that just because you are not ashamed of nakedness does not make it right the fact is that many children will feel very little shame if they sin it is only after they are told that it is wrong or are punished that they begin to feel ashamed. The only way we can define sin is using the bible not the feelings of children or nudists.

I was refuting your prior statement "The fact is you can see what they are in the eyes of god without walking around naked and I have already talked about how we are not created naked and unashamed."

Yes the job will only be complete,and our relationship will not be restored, until we go to heaven and until then there will still be sin in the lives of believers unlike in eden.

Where does the Bible say that?

This almost always starts with both parties fully clothed.
... The fact is that extramarital affairs, adultery, rape have alot to do with other influences and virtually nothing to do with wearing clothes as 50-60 years ago they were alot lower at a time when people wore clothes and they have risen due to influences which certainly dont include the fact that people have started to wear clothes as this remains the same despite changing rates.

Sounds here like you agree with me on this.

Also you have failed to list a single study/stat to back up your point.

I'm still trying to get my hands on copies of the actual studies at various libraries and book stores.

Some of the statistics are available at
http://www.naturistsociety.com/resources/preface.htm

If a woman is naked you have no need to fantasise about what she looks like naked you can see her and it leaves little to the imagination and it also becomes easier to get aroused by her body(some naturists have already admitted on this discussion that they get pleasure/sensual enjoyment/feelings of freedom from the nakedness of other people and see nothing wrong with this but deny it is sexual arousal/lust but call it appreciation) and fantasise about sex.

You missed the point about "pleasure" entirely. Please go back an read the posts.

It is also not just the lust that is the sin but nakedness is what we are discussing not lust and nakedness is shameful whether you lust or not.

If what you are saying is true, then you better never take a bath, or a shower, or go th the gym, or go th the doctor, or change your clothing, or be born. You need to be naked for all of those situations, which means you are sinning.

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[Johnnz]

Clarity,

The simple equation of lust with words such as enjoy or appreciate is demeaning to those who have used those terms. It implies that those people cannot really distinguish their different internal processes, whereas you can, on their behalf!

1 I enjoy food
2 I appreciate good music
3 I love soaking in a hot bath on a cold winter's night
4 I enjoy the freedom to swim naked

You can accept that I know what I mean in statements 1-3
You believe that I don't know what I mean in 4. I obviously lust.

That is entering into thought control territory. The debate has moved entirely from the rational to the subjective.

John
NZ

 

[Clarity]

They are UNASHAMED of their nakedness until we, as parents, TEACH them to be shamefull of their bodies

I have already talked about how we are not created naked and unashamed."

I am unsure what you are saying but i think the biblical answer is the second one and I am not talking literally when I say we are created naked and ashamed but metaphorically/symbolically. Taking into account that the bible states nudity is shameful I am highlighting what our reaction should be not what it is.

The simple equation of lust with words such as enjoy or appreciate is demeaning to those who have used those terms. It implies that those people cannot really distinguish their different internal processes, whereas you can, on their behalf!

What is the difference between appreciating a woman and being sexually aroused by her? I think they are different words for the same thing and naturists are just twisting words and use the word appreciation as it sounds better than aroused or other such words. As i have already said i think it is wrong to be excited/aroused/get sensual enjoyment/appreciate the nakedness of someone whom you are not married to.(see my huge post pg40)

Where does the Bible say that?

It says it in loads of places and is a central biblical doctrine.

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Corinthians 2:9).

"He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be nor more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:3-4).

"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43

"You fill me with joy in your presence; with eternal pleasures at your right hand" (Psalm 16:11).

Revelation 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Sounds here like you agree with me on this.

So you think increased lust, rape etc has virtually nothing to do with wearing clothing/naturism in recent years but is mainly due to other influences?
However I am not saying that there is definitely no link, just that these factors are not contributing to influence current trends as nearly everyone wears clothes. However if nudity was more acceptable I do not think this would help to decrease rape,lust etc. Anyway i think we need to concentrate more on the bible and less on statistics and complex analysis of these as unlike statistics the bible is never wrong.