Nudism

[Shane Roach]

It wasnt that being naked wa sbad, its that they would have caught their deaths of cold or been sunburned. God simply gave them the gift of being able to protect themselves from the elements.

///

Said they were ashamed.

The Bible also has some things to say about people who have no shame, and it is not that they have outgrown their shame.

 

[Archivist]

I've always liked those old Victorian style dresses.

Michelle

Do you know what those old style Victorian dresses did to the women wearing them?

God forbid that we ever go back to those dresses.

 

[Clarity]

Just a simple question
Why do people become naturists? What is their motivation?
Do you think it is better to be a naturist than to wear clothes?

What about


Revelation 3
18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

1 Corinthians 12v23
and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,

Ezekiel 16
7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.

When he says you who were naked and bare (past tense) he is referring to the time when they had rebelled and practised detestable things but then god came and saved them and made them grow into beautiful jewels. In this verse naked and bare is associated with the people rebelling against god.

In isaiah his nakedness is a sign that the israelites were going to be captured and led away as slaves as shown in the following passage

Isaiah 20
4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared-to Egypt's shame.

Here nakedness is again associated with shame.

Exodus 20v26
And do not go up to my altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it.
Nakedness is inappropriate near gods altar. WHY?

Deuteronomy 28:48
therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you

2 chronicles 28:15
The men designated by name took the prisoners, and from the plunder they clothed all who were naked. They provided them with clothes and sandals, food and drink, and healing balm. All those who were weak they put on donkeys. So they took them back to their fellow countrymen at Jericho, the City of Palms, and returned to Samaria.

In these two passages nudity is associated with poverty.

Job 24
7 Lacking clothes, they spend the night naked;
they have nothing to cover themselves in the cold.
8 They are drenched by mountain rains
and hug the rocks for lack of shelter.
9 The fatherless child is snatched from the breast;
the infant of the poor is seized for a debt.
10 Lacking clothes, they go about naked;
they carry the sheaves, but still go hungry.

Yet again nudity is associated with poverty.

Isaiah 47
2 Take millstones and grind flour;
take off your veil.
Lift up your skirts, bare your legs,
and wade through the streams.
3 Your nakedness will be exposed
and your shame uncovered.
I will take vengeance;
I will spare no one."

Nakedness is again associated with shame.

Isaiah 57
7 You have made your bed on a high and lofty hill;
there you went up to offer your sacrifices.
8 Behind your doors and your doorposts
you have put your pagan symbols.
Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed,
you climbed into it and opened it wide;
you made a pact with those whose beds you love,
and you looked on their nakedness.

Here nakedness is associated with worshipping other gods.

Isaiah 58
Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Nakedness is again associated with poverty and a command to clothe the naked is given. Clothing the naked includes clothing naturists so if you see a naturist who is naked walking around you should clothe him/her.

Lamentations 1v8
Jerusalem has sinned greatly and so has become unclean. All who honored her despise her, for they have seen her nakedness; she herself groans and turns away.

Her nakedness is associated with sin and being unclean.

Lamentations 4 v21
Rejoice and be glad, O Daughter of Edom, you who live in the land of Uz. But to you also the cup will be passed; you will be drunk and stripped naked.

Again nakedness is seen as a punishment for those who reject god.

Ezekiel 16v8
'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD , and you became mine

Nakedness is representing those who are not part of gods people.


Ezekiel 16
35 " 'Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD ! 36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children's blood, 37 therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.

Here nakedness is associated with promiscuity and nakedness is seen as a punishment that is undesirable and will cause shame.

Ezekiel 18v16
He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.

Again the virtue of providing clothes for the naked.

Ezekiel 23v18
When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.

Nakedness is associated with prostitutes and immorality.

Ezekiel 23
28 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to hand you over to those you hate, to those you turned away from in disgust. 29 They will deal with you in hatred and take away everything you have worked for. They will leave you naked and bare, and the shame of your prostitution will be exposed. Your lewdness and promiscuity 30 have brought this upon you, because you lusted after the nations and defiled yourself with their idols.

Nakedness is again seen as a punishemnt that leads to shame.

Micah 1
11 Pass on in nakedness and shame,
you who live in Shaphir. [1]
Those who live in Zaanan [2]
will not come out.
Beth Ezel is in mourning;
its protection is taken from you.

Nahum 3v5
"I am against you," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will lift your skirts over your face. I will show the nations your nakedness and the kingdoms your shame.

Yet again nakedness is a sign of shame.

Revelation 16v15
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

Revelation 17v 16
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.


If nakedness is right why is it always associated with shame, disobedience to god, promiscuity, serving other gods, punishment from god, being unclean and poverty. The fact is that nakedness is given a negative connotation in all of the bible after the second chapter of genesis and it is clear that nakedness is seen as being highly undesirable and shameful in normal circumstances.

 

[BigToe]

Probably the same reason its ok to offer a woman to be raped.....

 

[BigToe]

Oh and also- whoever said its uncomfortable for women to be nude- have you ever worn a bra? They aren't comfortable. We wear clothes because its what society expects, because people teach us we should be ashamed of our bodies, we are told to like our bodies is cocky.In all honesty, I would much rather be nude. Thanks.

Throughout the Bible, there are verses associating being a woman with negative things, being a Gentile was negative, being an unmarried female was certainly looked down upon. Should I then be ashamed of who I am because I am a single female? No, of course not.

There are many literary devices people use to make their writing more colorful and easier to understand. Metaphor is one such thing. When you think of someone who is just not right with the world what do you think of? You think of someone who is vulnerable to the elements, someone low on the food chain, things like that. The use of nudity to describe these people demonstrated their vulnerablitiy.

You think it is wrong- that is most certainly fine. You better not be a nudist and wear clothing. But do not tell another person what is or is not ok for them. That is rude. They aren't telling anyone to go out and become a nudist.

Furthermore, the Hebrew text didn't use vowels so there is ambiguity as to the term used that was translated into naked. The case of Adam and Eve is a good example here. Both words would have been written rmm. One is naked (eromim)as in without clothes, and the other (arumim) is uncovering of deceptions. And considering what had happened in the Garden- I think its a safe bet to translate it either way, meaning it very well could be what their eyes have been opened to, not their bodies, that made them ashamed.

And going further- the "coverings" they made- look at the word used (chagowr)- it literally translates in to "belt about the waist", so even then- they were still topless.

Still discussing Genesis- Let's also look at a Pagan Babylonian text written several centuries before Genesis- The Gilgamesh Epic. It has a story that is parallel to the Adam and Eve story in that Enkidu and a harlot eat forbidden fruit and then receive sexual knowledge. Their sexual knowledge then made them embarrassed at their nudity. Now chances are, Adam and Eve also gained sexual knowledge and very well could have but on "coverings" to protect themselves and help curb the sexual appetite gained with this new knowledge.

Now on to Noah's nakedness. We all know that Ham saw him and when Noah awoke he was angry and cursed Ham's son Canaan and all his descendants. Now using Exodus 21:15 and Leviticus 20:9 as back up, that would have been an understandable thing for Noah to have done because when a child shames their parent, and it would be easily understood how Ham could have ridiculed his father.

And perhaps you think Exodus 32:19-25 is an example of nudity being wrong. But those men and women were punished for worshipping the Golden Calf, not for being nude. Furthermore, all translations of the passage are pretty unclear- some say they were committing adultry, or running wild, or unrestrained....

Ok, so you know the passage where lots of people think that perhaps Jonathan and David had a relationship with a sexual nature? Well when talking about what Jonathan took off to give to David, it mentions things down to his belt. And being as they didn't exactly have underware back in the day- one's belt was the first thing they put on and the last thing they took off. He was naked.

Continuing on to the next chapter in 1 Samuel, we have the story of Saul sending messengers to go get David. Each group he sent, the Spirit of the Lord descended upon them and so Saul went to do it himself. It says in 24-26 "**He also stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?" This is the first of many similar events in the Bible. So obviously there isnt intrinsic shame or sin with nudity if God would have you prophesy in the nude!

Ok, lets jog on over to 2 Samuel when David is on the roof of his palace and sees a woman bathing. Now indoor private baths weren't exactly a given back then, and oftentimes people bathed PUBLICALLY in the river. Bathsheba probably was in her courtyard out of sight of your average passerby, but of course not out of sight of the roof of the Palace. Her nudity is mentioned in passing without any sort of judgement- which seems to support that it is not sinful to be nude in the sight of others or see another person nude. Remember what David was punished for- having and adulterous relationship and arranging for the death of her husband, not for seeing her nude.

Isaiah 20:2 is where God tells Isaiah to strip and walk barefoot and nude. He then did so for 3 years. This was symbolic of the conquer and capture of Egyptian and Ethiopian prisoners that were taken away naked and barefoot. And interesting note, if you follow any sort of church history- St Francis of Assisi, and Brother Rufino did the same, stripped down nude in the center of the town and preached nude in church. So its apparent that nudity is not directly assosciated with sin if Isaiah is TOLD by God to be nude, and church fathers felt it worthy to repeat. If nudity were so clearly inherently sinful- why would they preach nude in a church?

Ok, you mentioned Job 24 to show nudity associated with poverty- that doesn't mean it is sinful. But backtrack to Job 22 for a second. Verse 6 is criticizing unrighteous people for their lack of compassion for others- they took from the nude what they didn't have- clothes. It wasn't the nudity in the passage being addressed- it was those that take from others what they don't have. The same is said in Job 24. They even go one further to not only take the clothes of the naked, but their food as well. These passages aren't saying nudity is bad, but stealing from people is. And stealing things from people that it is clear they are in desparate need of is just wrong.

You mentioned the verse in Isaiah 58. You notice it isn't saying anything bad about the naked- but commanding people to take care of those in need that cannot feed themselves, provide their own shelter, or buy their own clothing. It is not a commandment to clothe all nude people, but a commandment to care for those less fortunate than yourself.

It is interesting you use Micah to condemn nudity, since Micah was yet another person who prophesied while nude.

So thats just looking at a few brief examples in the Old Testament as to why nudity isn't bad in and of itself.

 

[BigToe]

Now onto the New Testament.

In Mark, we have the blind man casting off his clothing to come to Jesus. It does not specify why he wished to do so in the nude- but his actions are not looked down upon.

Also, as for baptism- you know that in the early years of Christianity those who baptized and those being baptized were nude.

Also, lets look at the accounts of Jesus' resurection. Seeing as they found the loin cloth and such- it is pretty apparent that when Christ was ressurected- he did so in the nude. And seeing as Jesus is without sin, nudity is most obviously stated as not being intrinsically sinful.

Also in John 21 we have Peter fishing, and its stated that he was working in the nude. Once again, we have nudity being mentioned in passing with out moral condemnation.

1 Corinthians 12:23 is another passage I see you've quoted. Again, its commenting on the cultural practices of the time. You will notice Paul does that quite often in his writings.

Nudity is mentioned in Luke 8 and Acts 19- but both of those it is associated with mental illness- obviously its not a comment on the nudity itself but the illness.

Then the last mention of nudityisin Luke 10 with the parable of the Good Samaritan. The people that passed has stripped him. So these last three instances of nudity are really instances of nudity when it wasnt voluntary. And I think it is safe to say we understand why not consenting to be nude is something to be looked down upon. It isn't the nudity itself thats condemned, but the conditions surrounding it.

So what can we say about God not liking nudity? Sure he doesn't- when it is forced upon people, when its in conjunction with sinful acts (idol worship, temple prostitution), or when its a sign that someone is lacking in basic needs and no one is caring for them.

Also, there is an interesting quote by Pope John Paul II while still a cardinal "Nakedness itself is not immodest... Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person, when its aim is to arouse concupiscence, as a result of which the person is put in the position of an object for enjoyment."

Think about it.

 

[Shane Roach]

Also, there is an interesting quote by Pope John Paul II while still a cardinal "Nakedness itself is not immodest... Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person, when its aim is to arouse concupiscence, as a result of which the person is put in the position of an object for enjoyment."

Think about it.

You just restated the last sentence or so of the post you were supposedly refuting. No one has implied that bathing nude or being nude against ones will was sin. Everyone is talking about why public nudity is spoken against, and showed multiple verses to show it. Your counterargument is that there are circumstances where it is allowed, yet even in those circumstances, the context is of shame, or symbolizing shame, as with the prophets.

Try out 1 Tim 6:3-5 for an explanation of why people are to turn their backs on teachings when they revolve around endless argument and fussing over fine definitions.

It's clear that nudity is not to be engaged in casually in public. Period.

 

[Miss Shelby]

BigToe,

When the Pope or the Bishops come out with a Church document stating that public nudity is okay, look me up. The Pope was not speaking of public nudity.

In the meantime, I'm still against it. And yes it has always been the teaching of the Church that the human body is a beautiful design because we are made in the image of God and when a man and woman are married in the eyes of God there is no need for shame of nakedness. You quoted him out of context.



Michelle

 

[Clarity]

1 Samuel 16
14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."

1 samuel 18
8 Saul was very angry; this refrain galled him. "They have credited David with tens of thousands," he thought, "but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom?" 9 And from that time on Saul kept a jealous eye on David.
10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand 11 and he hurled it, saying to himself, "I'll pin David to the wall." But David eluded him twice.

1 samuel 19
1"My father Saul is looking for a chance to kill you.
9 But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, 10 Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall. That night David made good his escape.

23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel's presence. He lay that way all that day and night. This is why people say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"

Saul was intending to kill david when he went to see him but god intervened and made him prophesy naked and the fact that he is naked was a way that god humiliated saul and this showed gods sovereign power notice that it was an evil spirit that came upon saul in previous chapters and it appears that the answer to the question may have been that saul was not among the prophets.

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would also like to point out that nudity in normal circumstances is shameful and wrong but it is possible in certain circumstances eg when god commands or when people are moved by gods spirit or within marriage that nudity is right but outside this, nudity is always wrong including naturism and this would be how i would sum up this topic.

 

[The Gregorian]

The bible is full of things that are good rules... under certain circumstances...

example: public nudity is shown to be very disgraceful.... This is because, in general, if you were stripped of your clothes and forced to walk down the street... that was a disgrace. However, if you were in an area where clothes weren't all that important... nudity is nothing bad at all. When I went to germany little kids were running around a park naked... because they were swimming. No one minded, so it was perfectly acceptable, thus not shameful. So there was nothing wrong.

Same with "swear words." In the '30s it was perfectly acceptable to say "damn it" (simply the opposite of "bless you") now it's not. Depending on your surroundings... I don't have a problem with swearing at all. I watch south park and I think they covered the topic very well in the south park movie... We went to war and killed millions and braughth satan to earth... because we were so freaked out over a couple of canadians using "dirty language." This shows how we really are... scared of a simple list of words. Seven words that were just declared "Bad." synonims for the words aren't "bad" ... "poop" is OK, but "****" isn't? they mean the same thing. Why did we decide on that? There's no reason, it's just what is acceptable.

example: it's morally "OK" to say certain "bad" words among crowds that aren't offended by it... but I wouldn't quote south park much in church. It nudity or bad words... it's only "bad" if it offends someone (even though there's no reason to be offended by either)

 

[BigToe]

I respect that it is your opinion that public nudity is wrong. I also respect that it is the opinion of many other Christians that public nudity is not wrong. I am sorry you didn't like my posts stating where in the Bible public nudity is not looked down upon as morally wrong or an abomination to God. In the future, I please ask that instead of insulting me and my beliefs that you extend the same respect I have for you and yours to me. I am sorry you feel that those who have arrived at different conclusions than your own are obsessed with dividing people and are just controversial. I was stating where I had gained the Biblical reasonings to back up my opinion, just as others in here had done to support arriving to the opposite conclusion.

Furthermore, please read the Pope John Paul II quote again- it isnt being nude in public that he says is immodest- its when nudity is involved in public sexuality.

 

[Archivist]

Big Toe,

Thank you for providing us with several excellent, thoughtful and well-researched posts.

The individual to whom you are refering earlier refered to posts by someone else who disagreed with his position as "sloppy."

My experience is that people resort to name calling when they lack facts to back up their position.

Again, thank you for your excellent posts.

Archivist

 

[green123]

JESUS SMOKES POT!

 

[Risen Tree]

*mod hat on*

Good discussion for the most part, but remember to attack on the issue, not the person.

*mod hat off*

 

[The Bellman]

Big Toe,

Thank you for providing us with several excellent, thoughtful and well-researched posts.

The individual to whom you are refering earlier refered to posts by someone else who disagreed with his position as "sloppy."

My experience is that people resort to name calling when they lack facts to back up their position.

Again, thank you for your excellent posts.

Archivist

I must comment on this. The poster who referred to Big Toe's position as "sloppy" was Shane Roach. He (Shane Roach) has repeatedly opposed my viewpoint in this thread, so I'm as prone as anyone to see flaws and faults in his posts. However, in calling Big Toe's position "sloppy", I don't feel that he was attacking Big Toe or resorting to name calling. He was judging the content of the post, not Big Toe. In fact, in initially calling Big Toe's position "sloppy", he made a point of complimenting Big Toe on some of his other posts in other threads; the whole point was that Shane Roach found Big Toe's post on this particular matter to be "sloppy". He went on to detail exactly why he felt this.

Although virtually everything he has posted in this thread has been disagreed with by me, I feel I must defend Shane Roach on this charge - I don't think he has in any way been guilty of name-calling.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Furthermore, please read the Pope John Paul II quote again- it isnt being nude in public that he says is immodest- its when nudity is involved in public sexuality.

Big Toe, I know the Church teaching about sexuality and marriage and I know that the Pope would not advocate people to be nude with eachother outside of marriage. Whether he was a Cardinal or an altar boy when he said it, I know that was not his meaning.

But, if you insist to differ how about this? Please provide a source for the quote that you have given and let us look at the entire document. Sound fair?

I was in no way insulting your beliefs. I stated that I am against public nudity, and that I think you quoted the Pope out of context. If I am wrong about that I will be happy to admit it, but I would like to see his entire commentary in order to determine that.

Michelle

 

[Shane Roach]

I don't know if I am the one that drew the mod comment or not, but it appears to me that that verse applies here.

Just about the only thing Christ asks of us anymore from the old law is to keep ourselves pure sexually. People trying to push the envelope of nudity in innapropriate places directly undermines that.

It wasn't meant as a direct comment on Big Toe, but on the strategy, in general, of a lot of people who want to teach something new, to do so by simply glossing over context and finding repeated ways to create "doubt". There is always some level of "doubt". The question to me is, is it reasonable at all?

Once the discussion has run its course, you being to look and say, "Ok, this is creating a division. Is it a seriouis division?" If it is, then I begin to look to scripture for an answer as to what to do about it.

It happens that scripture does have something to say about arguments that seem to go on and on and revolve around defining and redefining words. I find it relavant both here and in many of the other threads that seem to get more out of control than this one has at all.

Just in general, the relative "sinfulness" of nudity is not high on my radar screen, but combined with references to western culture being overly obsessed with sex, and repeated attempts to reference the Bible despite an absolute mountain of specifically referenced and quoted verses, it begins to suggest that what we need as a culture is a more lax attitude about sex, which is just about the last thing I believe we need, and specifically not Christians.

 

[Shane Roach]

And just to be really clear, I'm sorry Big Tow for offending you. I just am not sure how else to point out those verses except to point them out...

Sorry, tone is sometimes not my strong point.

 

[BigToe]

I used scripture to back my position the same as anyone else. If you feel I am attempting to be divisive, well thats your opinion on me I guess. This is the only "debate" thread I even participate on this site so it is certainly not a goal of mine to be controversial. The other two threads I participate on on CF- one is about sexual assault and another is a chatty one where people just hang out. I felt you were judging me and my beliefs without knowing a thing about me.

Like I said, if you find public nudity to be wrong- don't do it. That doesn't mean that others wont arrive at a different conclusion. And it doesn't make your conclusion right and theirs wrong, just as theirs isn't right and yours wrong.


And Miss Shelby- I am not saying the catholic church says public nudity is ok or not. I just found that particular quote interesting in what its saying about nudity. Please don't put words into my mouth.

 

[Shane Roach]

I used scripture to back my position the same as anyone else. If you feel I am attempting to be divisive, well thats your opinion on me I guess. This is the only "debate" thread I even participate on this site so it is certainly not a goal of mine to be controversial. The other two threads I participate on on CF- one is about sexual assault and another is a chatty one where people just hang out. I felt you were judging me and my beliefs without knowing a thing about me.

Like I said, if you find public nudity to be wrong- don't do it. That doesn't mean that others wont arrive at a different conclusion. And it doesn't make your conclusion right and theirs wrong, just as theirs isn't right and yours wrong.


And Miss Shelby- I am not saying the catholic church says public nudity is ok or not. I just found that particular quote interesting in what its saying about nudity. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Well, "each to their own," is something of a truism. I can't help what other people believe. But looking at your responses and the context, as I said, I don't really think it follows that since some people disagree with the consensus that the issue is therefore just a matter of opinion and people should just not make a judgement on the matter.

See the difference?