NT contents and is authority needed?

JM

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No, my desire not to argue doesn't mean what you think it means. It is a spiritual discipline. Who was ever won, or even listened, when arguments become strident and vitriolic? It poisons the soul and does not honor God, nor present a picture of disciples of Christ loving one another as we are supposed to do.

I will leave the rest to you ... if you actually want to discuss, I am happy to. If you only want to continue with the current trend, then I don't see it as profitable.

However, you are mistaken in your blanket comments about history and the Church. "Marian dogmas" are mostly a product of the west, and a recent one. And a common Liturgy stretches further back. It's simple truth that the Church (which yes, consisted of believers) recognized the truth of the documents which became Scripture and ratified them.

As for knowledge the EO possesses, well, yes, we use the writings of 15 centuries of Christians before the reformation, relying especially heavily on those taught directly by the Apostles. It's not as though we keep it locked in a vault somewhere though. Protestants are freely welcome to the same wisdom. It just seems they mostly like to reinvent things, sometimes getting them right, sometimes not. But it's available to anyone who wants to study it.

That is why I posted:

Traditionalists are not in a better position than Protestants because all our appeals to authority are circle.

(I've used bold to show where I've altered the original for posting purposes.)

Both RC and EO based their authority what they they can infer, their respective bodies, infer, "from historical observations, and its private biblical interpretations, that it alone has the note of infallibility. Using so-called spiral reasoning, it is then a simple matter to conclude that whatever an infallible church infers, its inference must be more than just that - it must be infallible fact."

"In addition, outside opinions which state that the Church... is not infallible are held up as the erroneous conclusions that are inevitable without the divine insight that (EO/RC) alone enjoys. This is the groundwork by which the Church... genuinely perceives its obligation to control all biblical translation and interpretation."

So yes, it doesn't matter what I post, it's all false based on your circle reasoning.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I used Orthodox sources.

Of course there are different kinds of beliefs in Christianity.



That's a hideous doctrine...we agree.



This is where we differ. Salvation is based on Christ alone and our justification is not partial based on what we do. John Piper was called out for essentially teaching that we are made right by Christ but must complete our justification with our actions.

With respect I disagree. I actually like icons, incense and prayer ropes but don't see any of it as proving I'm faithful to Christ and helping me avoid awaiting judgement in a nicer place.



I've read and quoted Eastern Orthodox sources including a Dogmatic used in a Russian Orthodox seminary.

For the interested reading one of the sources I used can be read online and is linked below.

On the question of the “Toll-Houses”

All of this points to the inability of Tradition to sort out matters clearly. Some believe Toll Houses are real and literal, others do not and yet, a third position exists that would have us believe the Orthodox do not teach it.


Who is correct? Anastasia or His Eminence, the Most Reverend Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa?

I'll struggle with scripture thank you.

Yours in the Lord,

jm



Ahhhh ... with ALL DUE RESPECT ... I would suggest not using Puhalo as a source. It is unfortunate that sometimes people go into error. There are sanctions against him teaching, I believe. And if I am not mistaken, he was never a "His Eminence".


This can be discussed but should be done so carefully.
 
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JM

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Ahhhh ... with ALL DUE RESPECT ... I would suggest not using Puhalo as a source. It is unfortunate that sometimes people go into error. There are sanctions against him teaching, I believe. And if I am not mistaken, he was never a "His Eminence".


This can be discussed but should be done so carefully.


Ok. I can only use what I have on hand: Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa - OrthodoxWiki
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ok. I can only use what I have on hand: Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa - OrthodoxWiki
Archbishop Lazar is known for his prolific (and, at times, controversial) theological writings, particularly regarding his criticism of the Orthodox teaching of the Aerial Toll-Houses, and his positions on homosexuality and transgenderism. The Synod of Bishops of the OCA has forbidden him to speak on the subject of homosexuality in any way contrary to official position of the Church.[1]


It's not my place to discuss such things. If I'm not mistaken he was allowed the title but it's not official. He's a 2002 convert, I think, which in terms of Orthodoxy is recent. Especially for an archbishop.
 
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JM

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Archbishop Lazar is known for his prolific (and, at times, controversial) theological writings, particularly regarding his criticism of the Orthodox teaching of the Aerial Toll-Houses, and his positions on homosexuality and transgenderism. The Synod of Bishops of the OCA has forbidden him to speak on the subject of homosexuality in any way contrary to official position of the Church.[1]


It's not my place to discuss such things. If I'm not mistaken he was allowed the title but it's not official. He's a 2002 convert, I think, which in terms of Orthodoxy is recent. Especially for an archbishop.

Yes, His Eminence, the Most Reverend Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa was forbidden to discuss homosexuality and transgenderism in any way contrary the EO position but not forbidden to discuss Toll Houses.
 
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~Anastasia~

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That is why I posted:

Traditionalists are not in a better position than Protestants because all our appeals to authority are circle.

(I've used bold to show where I've altered the original for posting purposes.)

Both RC and EO based their authority what they they can infer, their respective bodies, infer, "from historical observations, and its private biblical interpretations, that it alone has the note of infallibility. Using so-called spiral reasoning, it is then a simple matter to conclude that whatever an infallible church infers, its inference must be more than just that - it must be infallible fact."

"In addition, outside opinions which state that the Church... is not infallible are held up as the erroneous conclusions that are inevitable without the divine insight that (EO/RC) alone enjoys. This is the groundwork by which the Church... genuinely perceives its obligation to control all biblical translation and interpretation."

So yes, it doesn't matter what I post, it's all false based on your circle reasoning.

Well, it works like this. If 39 Church leaders, all trained and ordained by the Apostles, all say "this Scripture means xyz". And one Church leader from the same period says, "no, it means abc". And the Church's continued experience bears out the xyz interpretation, we go with xyz.

If you want to read that and understand it (hopefully from within the context and life of how the Church functioned, lived, worshipped) ... then fine. If you'd rather listen to a well-meaning voice trying to figure it out for himself, or your own, 1500 or 2000 years later, then you are free to do so. Fortunately God desires all men to be saved, and I pray He works with all.

But criticizing others for holding to the same beliefs from the beginning, or giving weight to them - is something that makes no sense to me.
 
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JM

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But criticizing others for holding to the same beliefs from the beginning, or giving weight to them - is something that makes no sense to me.

Not the same from the beginning, here's proof:

For almost 200 years the Greek State church argued over the use of images, specifically Icons and their purpose in the church…if they had any purpose at all. Many Western Christians are not familiar with this debate, at least not in detail, so I hope to give a very brief outline highlighting a few of the more interesting facts. Make no bones about it, I am unable to find any scriptural reason for the use of images, so the best I can try to do is be honest with the particulars as I have come to understand them. The debate took place between what modern historians call Iconoclasts and Iconophiles or those who rejected religious images often resulting in their destruction and those who believe religious images have a place in the Christian religion. This debate seemed bound to happen as the revelation of God in scripture came into contact with Greek culture and religion. The former rejects the use of images of the Divine and the latter wholeheartedly encourages images, statues and the like. Some Christians in both the East and West believed it was acceptable to create representations of Christ and the Trinity but there was also a group of Christians that denied any need for them. The Iconophiles believed icons were useful and even essential to worship while the Iconoclasts believed it was against the second commandment to do so. William R. Cannon points out, “A custom which primitive Christianity looked upon as idolatry was common practice in the eight century. Consequently what in ancient times had been an innovation was considered during this period as tradition.” (page 105) Diarmaid MacCulloch calls this rub of Hebrew and Greek culture the “fault line” for the old covenant forbids images of God in any sense while Greek paganism encouraged it. A similar debate can be found in the history of the Western church but it has not had the same impact on history as it had in the East. Some historians have suggested the numbering of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) might have contributed to the use of statues by Roman Catholics who, following Augustine of Hippo neatly tuck the First and Second Commandment into one and separated the Tenth into Nine and Ten. Lutherans use Augustine’s numbering of the Decalogue and take no issue with images either. I’m not sure if this really effects the views expressed by each group considering the Eastern Orthodox use the same numbering system as Judaism and Protestantism but it was mentioned a few times by different authors so I mention it here. When you take a closer look at the details of the “controversy” it soon becomes apparent that matters of theology were passed from the Byzantine Emperor to the Patriarch of Constantinople. If the verdict was contrary to the wishes of the Emperor it was likely the Patriarch would be replaced. This happened more than a few times over the course of Byzantine history. From my reading on the subject it seems Leo (III) the Isaurian, Byzantine Emperor (717 – 741), saw a growing devotion and power ascribed to religious images. He believed this was mere superstition and tried to rid the empire of religious iconography with a series of edicts (726 – 729) forbidding the use of images in worship. Leo the III was not immune to superstition. It seems likely that Leo, having fought Islamic armies, believed that removing of images might lead to military victories. Whatever the reason behind the Controversy and it was always a political issue.



(Hagia Eirene Church, Iconoclast. Notice the lack of adornment.)​

The Iconophiles found a champion in John of Damascus (645/676 – 749) who offered a polemic for the use of images. Cannon describes John as one of the few strong theologians of the 8th century, not in the same class as Augustine of Hippo, but without equal in the West for the time period. Using a philosophical framework of categories and causes borrowed from Aristotle John of Damascus argued the Second Commandment was abrogated by the Incarnation of Christ. “If one accepted this vocabulary and Aristotelian framework, then devotion to visual images in Christianity was safe.” (MacCulloch, page 448) The Greek church essentially changed the language which framed the debate over images from art to theology. Skipping ahead the matter came to close as Irene of Athens, former regent and now Empress after having her sons blinded and imprisoned, assumed the throne. She was in favour of Icons and had a layman who was also in favour of Icons consecrated Patriarch. Patriarch Tarasios, with help from the State, held what was deemed an “Ecumenical Conclave” in 787 or what is often called the Second Council of Nicaea which effectively restored the use of images in worship. Some further political proclamations against Icons were made but Empress Theodora (843) restored again the use of images in worship. This last proclamation of the State church “effectively closed down the possibility of alternative forms of worship in Orthodox tradition.” (McCulloch, page 452) It soon becomes apparent the debate was heated and very political. Icons and other images had a cult following that garnered the support of the State. Ultimately it wasn’t the Bible that settled the issue for the church but two Empresses backing the Iconophiles. The idea that you could reach God through images is foreign to scripture. God “calls us back and withdraws us from petty carnal observances, which our stupid minds, crassly conceiving of God, are wont to devise.” (Calvin) Some are quick to point to the Second Council of Nicaea as a historical point of reference but we cannot forget the polemics against the use of images that predate the Reformation such as the works of Claudius of Turin, the Council of Frankfurt and Libri Carolini. With the Reformers cry of “scripture alone” and “all of scripture” the debate was reopened in the West during the Reformation. John Calvin is masterful in the Institutes on this subject and I have quoted pertinent sections below for your further reading. He rightly calls Empress Irene “a wicked Proserpine named Irene” in his French edition.

Semper Reformanda,

jm

from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1: 14. Enough, I believe, would have been said on this subject, were I not in a manner arrested by the Council of Nice; not the celebrated Council which Constantine the Great assembled, but one which was held eight hundred years ago by the orders and under the auspices of the Empress Irene. This Council decreed not only that images were to be used in churches, but also that they were to be worshipped. Every thing, therefore, that I have said, is in danger of suffering great prejudice from the authority of this Synod. To confess the truth, however, I am not so much moved by this consideration, as by a wish to make my readers aware of the lengths to which the infatuation has been carried by those who had a greater fondness for images than became Christians. But let us first dispose of this matter. Those who defend the use of images appeal to that Synod for support. But there is a refutation extant which bears the name of Charlemagne, and which is proved by its style to be a production of that period. It gives the opinions delivered by the bishops who were present, and the arguments by which they supported them. John, deputy of the Eastern Churches, said, “God created man in his own image,” and thence inferred that images ought to be used. He also thought there was a recommendation of images in the following passage, “Show me thy face, for it is beautiful.” Another, in order to prove that images ought to be placed on altars, quoted the passage, “No man, when he has lighted a candle, putteth it under a bushel.” Another, to show the utility of looking at images, quoted a verse of the Psalms “The light of thy countenance, O Lord, has shone upon us.” Another laid hold of this similitude: As the Patriarchs used the sacrifices of the Gentiles, so ought Christians to use the images of saints instead of the idols of the Gentiles. They also twisted to the same effect the words, “Lord, I have loved the beauty of thy house.” But the most ingenious interpretation was the following, “As we have heard, so also have we seen;” therefore, God is known not merely by the hearing of the word, but also by the seeing of images. Bishop Theodore was equally acute: “God,” says he, “is to be admired in his saints;” and it is elsewhere said, “To the saints who are on earth;” therefore this must refer to images. In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them.



15. When they treat of adoration, great stress is laid on the worship of Pharaoh, the staff of Joseph, and the inscription which Jacob set up. In this last case they not only pervert the meaning of Scripture, but quote what is nowhere to be found. Then the passages, “Worship at his footstool”—“Worship in his holy mountain”—“The rulers of the people will worship before thy face,” seem to them very solid and apposite proofs. Were one, with the view of turning the defenders of images into ridicule, to put words into their mouths, could they be made to utter greater and grosser absurdities? But to put an end to all doubt on the subject of images, Theodosius Bishop of Mira confirms the propriety of worshipping them by the dreams of his archdeacon, which he adduces with as much gravity as if he were in possession of a response from heaven. Let the patrons of images now go and urge us with the decree of this Synod, as if the venerable Fathers did not bring themselves into utter discredit by handling Scripture so childishly, or wresting it so shamefully and profanely. 16. I come now to monstrous impieties, which it is strange they ventured to utter, and twice strange that all men did not protest against with the utmost detestation. It is right to expose this frantic and flagitious extravagance, and thereby deprive the worship of images of that gloss of antiquity in which Papists seek to deck it. Theodosius Bishop of Amora fires oft an anathema at all who object to the worship of images. Another attributes all the calamities of Greece and the East to the crime of not having worshipped them. Of what punishment then are the Prophets, Apostles, and Martyrs worthy, in whose day no images existed? They afterwards add, that if the statue of the Emperor is met with odours and incense, much more are the images of saints entitled to the honour. Constantius, Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, professes to embrace images with reverence, and declares that he will pay them the respect which is due to the ever blessed Trinity: every person refusing to do the same thing he anathematises and classes with Marcionites and Manichees. Lest you should think this the private opinion of an individual, they all assent. Nay, John the Eastern legate, carried still farther by his zeal, declares it would be better to allow a city to be filled with brothels than be denied the worship of images. At last it is resolved with one consent that the Samaritans are the worst of all heretics, and that the enemies of images are worse than the Samaritans. But that the play may not pass off without the accustomed Plaudite, the whole thus concludes, “Rejoice and exult, ye who, having the image of Christ, offer sacrifice to it.” Where is now the distinction of λατρια and δυλια with which they would throw dust in all eyes, human and divine? The Council unreservedly relies as much on images as on the living God.

Sources:
A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years Diarmaid MacCulloch Penguin (2009) ISBN-13: 978-0141021898 History of Christianity in the Middle ages; From the Fall of Rome to the Fall of Constantinople William R. Cannon Abingdon Press (1960) ISBN: n/a
 
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~Anastasia~

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Yes, His Eminence, the Most Reverend Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa was forbidden to discuss homosexuality and transgenderism in any way contrary the EO position but not forbidden to discuss Toll Houses.

From an Orthodox point of view ... a person that becomes so misguided on various fundamentals isn't a safe source to consult on anything. Which is part of how we "do theology" from the beginning.

Someone who is wrong about 50% of the basics ought not be interpreting hard things for those trying to learn.

Someone who is known to be right on 99% of the fundamentals, AND LIVES A LIFE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEM, is a much more trustworthy guide of that other 1% of things that are hard to understand.
 
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~Anastasia~

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You do realize there were icons and images in the Jewish Temples? Christ had plenty of opportunity to speak against them.


Again, there are writings of various Church fathers. Forgive me, but Calvin's opinion, removed by many centuries and with zero experience of what he speaks, is not a voice that trumps theirs for me.

You really seem to be putting a lot of effort into attempting to destroy the credibility of Orthodoxy. I still don't see a reason?

Not the same from the beginning, here's proof:

For almost 200 years the Greek State church argued over the use of images, specifically Icons and their purpose in the church…if they had any purpose at all. Many Western Christians are not familiar with this debate, at least not in detail, so I hope to give a very brief outline highlighting a few of the more interesting facts. Make no bones about it, I am unable to find any scriptural reason for the use of images, so the best I can try to do is be honest with the particulars as I have come to understand them. The debate took place between what modern historians call Iconoclasts and Iconophiles or those who rejected religious images often resulting in their destruction and those who believe religious images have a place in the Christian religion. This debate seemed bound to happen as the revelation of God in scripture came into contact with Greek culture and religion. The former rejects the use of images of the Divine and the latter wholeheartedly encourages images, statues and the like. Some Christians in both the East and West believed it was acceptable to create representations of Christ and the Trinity but there was also a group of Christians that denied any need for them. The Iconophiles believed icons were useful and even essential to worship while the Iconoclasts believed it was against the second commandment to do so. William R. Cannon points out, “A custom which primitive Christianity looked upon as idolatry was common practice in the eight century. Consequently what in ancient times had been an innovation was considered during this period as tradition.” (page 105) Diarmaid MacCulloch calls this rub of Hebrew and Greek culture the “fault line” for the old covenant forbids images of God in any sense while Greek paganism encouraged it. A similar debate can be found in the history of the Western church but it has not had the same impact on history as it had in the East. Some historians have suggested the numbering of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) might have contributed to the use of statues by Roman Catholics who, following Augustine of Hippo neatly tuck the First and Second Commandment into one and separated the Tenth into Nine and Ten. Lutherans use Augustine’s numbering of the Decalogue and take no issue with images either. I’m not sure if this really effects the views expressed by each group considering the Eastern Orthodox use the same numbering system as Judaism and Protestantism but it was mentioned a few times by different authors so I mention it here. When you take a closer look at the details of the “controversy” it soon becomes apparent that matters of theology were passed from the Byzantine Emperor to the Patriarch of Constantinople. If the verdict was contrary to the wishes of the Emperor it was likely the Patriarch would be replaced. This happened more than a few times over the course of Byzantine history. From my reading on the subject it seems Leo (III) the Isaurian, Byzantine Emperor (717 – 741), saw a growing devotion and power ascribed to religious images. He believed this was mere superstition and tried to rid the empire of religious iconography with a series of edicts (726 – 729) forbidding the use of images in worship. Leo the III was not immune to superstition. It seems likely that Leo, having fought Islamic armies, believed that removing of images might lead to military victories. Whatever the reason behind the Controversy and it was always a political issue.


(Hagia Eirene Church, Iconoclast. Notice the lack of adornment.)​

The Iconophiles found a champion in John of Damascus (645/676 – 749) who offered a polemic for the use of images. Cannon describes John as one of the few strong theologians of the 8th century, not in the same class as Augustine of Hippo, but without equal in the West for the time period. Using a philosophical framework of categories and causes borrowed from Aristotle John of Damascus argued the Second Commandment was abrogated by the Incarnation of Christ. “If one accepted this vocabulary and Aristotelian framework, then devotion to visual images in Christianity was safe.” (MacCulloch, page 448) The Greek church essentially changed the language which framed the debate over images from art to theology. Skipping ahead the matter came to close as Irene of Athens, former regent and now Empress after having her sons blinded and imprisoned, assumed the throne. She was in favour of Icons and had a layman who was also in favour of Icons consecrated Patriarch. Patriarch Tarasios, with help from the State, held what was deemed an “Ecumenical Conclave” in 787 or what is often called the Second Council of Nicaea which effectively restored the use of images in worship. Some further political proclamations against Icons were made but Empress Theodora (843) restored again the use of images in worship. This last proclamation of the State church “effectively closed down the possibility of alternative forms of worship in Orthodox tradition.” (McCulloch, page 452) It soon becomes apparent the debate was heated and very political. Icons and other images had a cult following that garnered the support of the State. Ultimately it wasn’t the Bible that settled the issue for the church but two Empresses backing the Iconophiles. The idea that you could reach God through images is foreign to scripture. God “calls us back and withdraws us from petty carnal observances, which our stupid minds, crassly conceiving of God, are wont to devise.” (Calvin) Some are quick to point to the Second Council of Nicaea as a historical point of reference but we cannot forget the polemics against the use of images that predate the Reformation such as the works of Claudius of Turin, the Council of Frankfurt and Libri Carolini. With the Reformers cry of “scripture alone” and “all of scripture” the debate was reopened in the West during the Reformation. John Calvin is masterful in the Institutes on this subject and I have quoted pertinent sections below for your further reading. He rightly calls Empress Irene “a wicked Proserpine named Irene” in his French edition.

Semper Reformanda,

jm

from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1: 14. Enough, I believe, would have been said on this subject, were I not in a manner arrested by the Council of Nice; not the celebrated Council which Constantine the Great assembled, but one which was held eight hundred years ago by the orders and under the auspices of the Empress Irene. This Council decreed not only that images were to be used in churches, but also that they were to be worshipped. Every thing, therefore, that I have said, is in danger of suffering great prejudice from the authority of this Synod. To confess the truth, however, I am not so much moved by this consideration, as by a wish to make my readers aware of the lengths to which the infatuation has been carried by those who had a greater fondness for images than became Christians. But let us first dispose of this matter. Those who defend the use of images appeal to that Synod for support. But there is a refutation extant which bears the name of Charlemagne, and which is proved by its style to be a production of that period. It gives the opinions delivered by the bishops who were present, and the arguments by which they supported them. John, deputy of the Eastern Churches, said, “God created man in his own image,” and thence inferred that images ought to be used. He also thought there was a recommendation of images in the following passage, “Show me thy face, for it is beautiful.” Another, in order to prove that images ought to be placed on altars, quoted the passage, “No man, when he has lighted a candle, putteth it under a bushel.” Another, to show the utility of looking at images, quoted a verse of the Psalms “The light of thy countenance, O Lord, has shone upon us.” Another laid hold of this similitude: As the Patriarchs used the sacrifices of the Gentiles, so ought Christians to use the images of saints instead of the idols of the Gentiles. They also twisted to the same effect the words, “Lord, I have loved the beauty of thy house.” But the most ingenious interpretation was the following, “As we have heard, so also have we seen;” therefore, God is known not merely by the hearing of the word, but also by the seeing of images. Bishop Theodore was equally acute: “God,” says he, “is to be admired in his saints;” and it is elsewhere said, “To the saints who are on earth;” therefore this must refer to images. In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them.



15. When they treat of adoration, great stress is laid on the worship of Pharaoh, the staff of Joseph, and the inscription which Jacob set up. In this last case they not only pervert the meaning of Scripture, but quote what is nowhere to be found. Then the passages, “Worship at his footstool”—“Worship in his holy mountain”—“The rulers of the people will worship before thy face,” seem to them very solid and apposite proofs. Were one, with the view of turning the defenders of images into ridicule, to put words into their mouths, could they be made to utter greater and grosser absurdities? But to put an end to all doubt on the subject of images, Theodosius Bishop of Mira confirms the propriety of worshipping them by the dreams of his archdeacon, which he adduces with as much gravity as if he were in possession of a response from heaven. Let the patrons of images now go and urge us with the decree of this Synod, as if the venerable Fathers did not bring themselves into utter discredit by handling Scripture so childishly, or wresting it so shamefully and profanely. 16. I come now to monstrous impieties, which it is strange they ventured to utter, and twice strange that all men did not protest against with the utmost detestation. It is right to expose this frantic and flagitious extravagance, and thereby deprive the worship of images of that gloss of antiquity in which Papists seek to deck it. Theodosius Bishop of Amora fires oft an anathema at all who object to the worship of images. Another attributes all the calamities of Greece and the East to the crime of not having worshipped them. Of what punishment then are the Prophets, Apostles, and Martyrs worthy, in whose day no images existed? They afterwards add, that if the statue of the Emperor is met with odours and incense, much more are the images of saints entitled to the honour. Constantius, Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, professes to embrace images with reverence, and declares that he will pay them the respect which is due to the ever blessed Trinity: every person refusing to do the same thing he anathematises and classes with Marcionites and Manichees. Lest you should think this the private opinion of an individual, they all assent. Nay, John the Eastern legate, carried still farther by his zeal, declares it would be better to allow a city to be filled with brothels than be denied the worship of images. At last it is resolved with one consent that the Samaritans are the worst of all heretics, and that the enemies of images are worse than the Samaritans. But that the play may not pass off without the accustomed Plaudite, the whole thus concludes, “Rejoice and exult, ye who, having the image of Christ, offer sacrifice to it.” Where is now the distinction of λατρια and δυλια with which they would throw dust in all eyes, human and divine? The Council unreservedly relies as much on images as on the living God.

Sources:
A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years Diarmaid MacCulloch Penguin (2009) ISBN-13: 978-0141021898 History of Christianity in the Middle ages; From the Fall of Rome to the Fall of Constantinople William R. Cannon Abingdon Press (1960) ISBN: n/a
 
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Radagast

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Anastasia's church was given authority in the 4th century.

There was only one church in the 4th century. Most major denominations today claim continuity with it.

It is during this time we have the Marian dogmas, liturgical developments, etc.

That's not the case -- your history is wrong. What we do have during this time is the Nicene Creed and the final canon of the New Testament.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Crypto is hiding something. It's in his name! lol He's actually not posting what Lutherans believe so please see the links.

My original name on here was CryptoLutheran, I lost the information and email associated with that account when I made this one, that was back in 2011. When I first signed up as "CryptoLutheran" I didn't have a church home, but I had largely identified as Lutheran, theologically, for a number of years prior. My upbringing was within an Evangelical/Pentecostal environment, as such my adoption of Lutheranism was somewhat quiet. The use of "crypto" as a prefix has been used to refer to people who adhere to certain beliefs while seemingly on the outside belonging to something else. For example the Crypto-Calvinists were nominal Lutherans who subscribed to Calvinistic teachings and thus diverged from orthodox Lutheran theology. And so I came to, though largely tongue-in-cheek, describe myself as a "Crypto-Lutheran", a secret Lutheran.

I have continued to sign off my posts "CryptoLutheran" in what originally started as a way to let people I had gotten to know on here under that name know that it's still me. That's no longer really necessary, but have continued to do so, and many people continue to refer to me a "Crypto" on here.

Instead of accusing me of "hiding something", you could have simply asked. I don't have cooties and I don't bite.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Actually you missed my point. As a Lutheran you are mixing the two ideas of the invisible church and the visible church.

I'm not, actually.

Anastasia's church was given authority in the 4th century.

That's false.

It is during this time we have the Marian dogmas, liturgical developments, etc. That is what I was referring to.

We can find those things prior to the 4th century.

https://wels.net/gods-church-invisible-yet-visible/

Augustine Collective | The Visible and Invisible Church

Church invisible - Wikipedia

Lutheran Theology Study Group: Luther's Concept of the True/Hidden and Visible Church

Trinity Lutheran Church - Austin, TX - Living With an Invisible God and Visible People (5/28/00)

"So we confess the church hidden and visible. Apology VII states that “the church is not only an association of external ties and rites like other civic organizations, but it is principally an association of faith and the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the people” (Ap VII:5). Further: “If we define the church only in terms of an external government consisting of both the good and wicked, people will not understand that the kingdom of Christ is the righteousness of the heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Instead they will think that it is only the external observance of certain religious rites and rituals” (Ap VII:13). The church is not a creature of the law but a creature of the gospel."

Thanks, but I'm quite aware of the visible/invisible Church distinction. However you'll note that no where do the Confessions there deny that the Church is a visible and external institution.

"Neither, indeed, are we dreaming of a Platonic state, as some wickedly charge, but we say that this Church exists, namely, the truly believing and righteous men scattered throughout the whole world. [We are speaking not of an imaginary Church, which is to be found nowhere; but we say and know certainly that this Church, wherein saints live, is and abides truly upon earth; namely, that some of God's children are here and there in all the world, in various kingdoms, islands, lands, and cities, from the rising of the sun to its setting, who have truly learned to know Christ and His Gospel.] And we add the marks: the pure doctrine of the Gospel [the ministry or the Gospel] and the Sacraments. And this Church is properly the pillar of the truth, 1 Tim. 3:15. For it retains the pure Gospel, and, as Paul says, 1 Cor. 3:11 [: "Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"], the foundation, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ and faith. Although among these [in the body which is built upon the true foundation, i.e., upon Christ and faith] there are also many weak persons, who build upon the foundation stubble that will perish, i.e., certain unprofitable opinions [some human thoughts and opinions], which, nevertheless, because they do not overthrow the foundation, are both forgiven them and also corrected." (Ap VII:20)

The marks of the Church are visible and external, consisting of the preaching of the Word, the Sacraments, the Office of the Keys, and ordained ministers.

Don't confuse the Lutheran doctrine of the "invisible Church" with some kind of esoteric teaching, it's not; the difference between the invisible church and the visible church is that the visible church contains both wheat and tares, the invisible church contains only the wheat. The true and holy and catholic Church is marked by the visible and tangible Means of Grace. But we acknowledge that there are those who, outwardly, seem to have received the Word nevertheless reject it, these are tares and goats.

Are you a Lutheran or not? Why the 'crypto?'

See my explanation offered already.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tayla

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why do members of the roman church feel a authority is required to prove inspiration of the God breathed out word, is not the ontological facts enough?
Zealous bishops overstepped their ministry and created clergy/laity division. This developed over time into a hierarchical monstrosity. The model should be the New Testament apostolic Church with bishops overseeing local churches; no patriarchates, no archbishops ruling over millions of people. There should be no Church membership outside of baptism; that is how you join the Church.
 
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Tree of Life

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Good Day,


I find lots of going on about the OT canon as it relates to the roman church and her members and those that are not members of that church. I am not going to get into those again here… I am hoping another thread will be opened on that, because I have been asked some very good question on a thread that is pages long….


This thread is specific to the NT I will be using what I believe to be the normative (in a general sense) from a site that is used to help roman church members to understand their own churches teaching… (Because you do understand the roman church’s teaching needs to be interpreted… I digress)

Proving Inspiration | Catholic Answers





I agree here history bears out exactly what the contents of God’s Canon we call the NT. There are lots that are here that presume way too much… and logical leaps that are unwarranted and not useful. I will say the inspiration of these books are not based on some name it claim it authority (they say there need to be one, and they fill the need they create) but is based on the ontological reality of Scriptures being God breathed out. The same holds true for their authority they are Gods breath there for their authority matches God’s.


So here is a question… why do members of the roman church feel a authority is required to prove inspiration of the God breathed out word, is not the ontological facts enough?

In Him,

Bill

Their claim is self-defeating and ultimately cannot stand under its own scrutiny.

Catholics say that we cannot know that Scripture is Scripture unless it is authorized by another authority. But to this we must ask: "How do we know that the Catholic church is authoritative?" She cannot appeal to Scripture because she's already said that Scripture isn't Scripture until the church recognizes it as such. At this point she must simply say that the Catholic church is authoritative because the Catholic church says the Catholic church is authoritative. So the authority of the Catholic church must be self-attesting.

But Protestants claim that the authority of Scripture is self-attesting and Catholics have criticized the Protestant position. Yet we see that the Catholics arrive at the same position, albeit a different source - namely the church - is the one who has primary, self-attesting authority.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Their claim is self-defeating and ultimately cannot stand under its own scrutiny.

Catholics say that we cannot know that Scripture is Scripture unless it is authorized by another authority. But to this we must ask: "How do we know that the Catholic church is authoritative?" She cannot appeal to Scripture because she's already said that Scripture isn't Scripture until the church recognizes it as such. At this point she must simply say that the Catholic church is authoritative because the Catholic church says the Catholic church is authoritative. So the authority of the Catholic church must be self-attesting.

But Protestants claim that the authority of Scripture is self-attesting and Catholics have criticized the Protestant position. Yet we see that the Catholics arrive at the same position, albeit a different source - namely the church - is the one who has primary, self-attesting authority.

You know ... not speaking for Catholicism but for THE ancient Church, which had no denominated names back then ...

In a sense you are really very correct. The bishops did meet and officially recognize canonical books of the Holy Scriptures. But the Church (meaning the people, the ekklesia) had an important part in it too. They DID recognize what was evident as Truth, because they'd been taught Truth. So in that way, yes, Scripture was somewhat self-attesting. Or it might be more accurate to say that forgeries were recognized and rejected, but it's along the same lines.

However, there were other documents and letters that were equally as true, and quite valuable, but ended up being rejected on grounds such as authorship, when the decision was made as to how to restrict the criteria there.

I don't know whether Catholicism teaches it that way or not, but that's how it happened in the early Church, and it is the model we as Orthodox maintain. Councils, the decrees of bishops, and so on are not binding/accepted until and unless the PEOPLE recognize that whatever it is, is consistent with the faith as we have received it.

But I wanted to say that in a sense you're right. It's a very organic process, which anything involving the Holy Spirit SHOULD be, IMO.

God be with you.




ETA - I'm not trying to be condescending either, btw. Perhaps you well know all of this. I just wished to respond to your point, because I thought there was a good one in there. :)
 
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