"Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob"

[keras]

What about a Christian who dies today of natural causes, where will his soul go after death ?

Everyones soul/spirit goes back to God when they die. To be raised at the GWT Judgment after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
It is only the Christian martyrs whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11

The "ye" back in Uzziah's time did not refer to people of other nations, races, languages. But to the Jews. No-one becomes a Jew, nor an Israelite, by virtue of becoming a Christian. That's faulty doctrine proven so by the nation of Israel over there right now, which everyone can see. But some are in denial of. To me, it is amazing, that some will deny it.

But what you deny is scriptures like Romans 2:29, Galatians 3:26-29, +
No-one changes their ethnicity, it is our Spiritual condition that matters.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption held by you and many, is false and exhibits a failure to understand the whole Message of the New Testament.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The "ye" back in Uzziah's time did not refer to people of other nations, races, languages. But to the Jews. No-one becomes a Jew, nor an Israelite, by virtue of becoming a Christian. That's faulty doctrine proven so by the nation of Israel over there right now, which everyone can see. But some are in denial of. To me, it is amazing, that some will deny it.

So, I guess passages like Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 3:16,26-29 are not in your Bible then? Because what you think is "faulty doctrine" is based on passages like those which your doctrine contradicts. I find it to be amazing that you deny the existence of the spiritual Israel of God even though scripture clearly teaches it.

 

[Douggg]

Everyones soul/spirit goes back to God when they die.

No conscious awareness of where they are or of their existence at that time?

 

[keras]

No conscious awareness of where they are or of their existence at that time?

No. The dead know nothing....
The many stories about consciousness after death, are Satanic delusions, not the true reality.

After a persons death, the next conscious act for them, will be to stand before God, in Judgement. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Douggg]

No. The dead know nothing....
The many stories about consciousness after death, are Satanic delusions, not the true reality.

The story Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man - was about a Satanic delusion ?

Okay, you are simply, totally wrong. People after they die are totally conscious of their existence and where they are.

 

[keras]

The story Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man - was about a Satanic delusion ?

Okay, you are simply, totally wrong. People after they die are totally conscious of their existence and where they are.

Your belief is contrary to Bible teaching:
Consciousness after death?
Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death.

This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they cease at death….
Many other passages [such as Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 30:9] support unconsciousness after death and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust, Genesis 3:19. Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says in many different ways.

Solomon also supports soul unawareness:
But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being for people after death.

The only people who will be brought back to life, will be those martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period of Satan’s control of the earth. Revelation 13:5-8 Plus the two Witnesses.

The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just homilies and every dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of time. Revelation 20:11-15, Daniel 7:9-10

As for the thief on the cross, Jesus said to him; Today you will be with Me in paradise.
There should be a comma after ‘today’, as Jesus did not go immediately to Paradise, [heaven] at all. He meant: on this day, you have the promise of immortality.

That is: your name is Written in the Book of Life, which will be opened at the Great White Throne Judgement and immortality will be conferred to those whose names are in it.

 

[Douggg]

Your belief is contrary to Bible teaching:
Consciousness after death?
Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death.

This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they cease at death….
Many other passages [such as Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 30:9] support unconsciousness after death and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust, Genesis 3:19. Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says in many different ways.

Solomon also supports soul unawareness:
But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being for people after death.

The only people who will be brought back to life, will be those martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period of Satan’s control of the earth. Revelation 13:5-8 Plus the two Witnesses.

The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just homilies and every dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of time. Revelation 20:11-15, Daniel 7:9-10

As for the thief on the cross, Jesus said to him; Today you will be with Me in paradise.
There should be a comma after ‘today’, as Jesus did not go immediately to Paradise, [heaven] at all. He meant: on this day, you have the promise of immortality.

That is: your name is Written in the Book of Life, which will be opened at the Great White Throne Judgement and immortality will be conferred to those whose names are in it.

Moses and Elijah appeared when Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration, and the some of the disciples witnessed it.

 

[keras]

Moses and Elijah appeared when Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration, and the some of the disciples witnessed it.

There is the case of Saul calling up Samuel.
Samuel said: Why have you disturbed me? 1 Samuel 28:15
He was 'sleeping in his grave'. As David is: Acts 13:36.
As Moses and Elijah were and God called them up to meet Jesus when He was glorified.

God keeps the souls of everyone who dies and when He sits on His Great White throne, in Judgment, He will call them all up to stand before Him. Revelation 20:11-15

The idea of people being conscious after death, is unbiblical error.
As I said: Any manifestations of dead people now are purely demonic and instigated by Satan to deceive people.
We are told to have nothing to do with such sorcery. Teaching and promoting life after death is serious error.

Douggg, we have been discussing this and many other issues for years now.
Is it impossible for you to accept correction? Or do you have to wait until events prove you wrong?

 

[Douggg]

There is the case of Saul calling up Samuel.
Samuel said: Why have you disturbed me? 1 Samuel 28:15
He was 'sleeping in his grave'. As David is: Acts 13:36.
As Moses and Elijah were and God called them up to meet Jesus when He was glorified.

God keeps the souls of everyone who dies and when He sits on His Great White throne, in Judgment, He will call them all up to stand before Him. Revelation 20:11-15

The idea of people being conscious after death, is unbiblical error.
As I said: Any manifestations of dead people now are purely demonic and instigated by Satan to deceive people.
We are told to have nothing to do with such sorcery. Teaching and promoting life after death is serious error.

I don't know why you would think the event regarding Saul equates to Moses and Elijah. The bible forbids humans from trying to contact the dead. The dead are in a different dimension than the living humans in this world.

Douggg, we have been discussing this and many other issues for years now.
Is it impossible for you to accept correction? Or do you have to wait until events prove you wrong?

Well you have some far out ideas, which your view of the dead appears to be that of "soul sleep", and no humans in heaven (the third heaven), and no rapture to heaven.

What you are saying is opposite of what Jesus said in Mark 12

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

When God spoke to Moses, although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob had died in their earthly bodies, they were living apart from it. In the place of the righteous dead, like Lazarus was, conscious and aware of his surroundings and eixtence.

 

[keras]

I don't know why you would think the event regarding Saul equates to Moses and Elijah. The bible forbids humans from trying to contact the dead. The dead are in a different dimension than the living humans in this world.

My point was that Samuel was 'sleeping', he was unconscious and the Witch of Endor used Satanic powers to wake him.
Samuel 'slept in death', as do every dead person. Their next conscious moment will be when they stand before God on His Great White Throne. Any other ideas, like the dead living in heaven; are false and cannot happen. Jesus said so: John 3:13

Well you have some far out ideas

They are not my ideas at all. I promote what the Bible tells us - believe the Bible, or not!

God is the God of the living. It is simply that the Patriarchs and everyone before now have died physically. Jesus was referring to their Spiritual condition, which awaits the final Judgment, when those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality.

What do you prefer, Douggg? Go thru the end times knowing what is to happen or be disappointed when a 'rapture' doesn't happen?

 

[Douggg]

My point was that Samuel was 'sleeping', he was unconscious and the Witch of Endor used Satanic powers to wake him.
Samuel 'slept in death', as do every dead person. Their next conscious moment will be when they stand before God on His Great White Throne. Any other ideas, like the dead living in heaven; are false and cannot happen. Jesus said so: John 3:13

The whole witch of Endor episode was a Satanic deception, and it was not the real Samuel involved. The impersonating spirit lied about Samuel being asleep, i.e. in a state of suspension of awareness. No witch can call up any real person from the other dimension.

But because Saul sought other powers, the spirit impersonating Samuel knew by doing so that Saul had separated himself from God, and it was a self-fulfilling prophecy that Saul would die from his involvement with the witch and a "familiar" spirit.

When Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and the disciples on the Mt of Transfiguration, they were the real deal, and were not called up from being "asleep".

Believing that there is not conscious awareness of one's active existence in the after-this body dimension - basing that belief on the witch of Endor event is believing the lie of the spirit who impersonated Samuel.

 

[keras]

The whole witch of Endor episode was a Satanic deception, and it was not the real Samuel involved. The impersonating spirit lied about Samuel being asleep, i.e. in a state of suspension of awareness. No witch can call up any real person from the other dimension.

But because Saul sought other powers, the spirit impersonating Samuel knew by doing so that Saul had separated himself from God, and it was a self-fulfilling prophecy that Saul would die from his involvement with the witch and a "familiar" spirit.

When Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and the disciples on the Mt of Transfiguration, they were the real deal, and were not called up from being "asleep".

Believing that there is not conscious awareness of one's active existence in the after-this body dimension - basing that belief on the witch of Endor event is believing the lie of the spirit who impersonated Samuel.

Your reply is entirely opinion and supposition.
No one should take any notice of this sort of unbiblical teaching.

A verse that proves the dead 'sleep in the earth', is:
Isaiah 26:19 But Your dead will live, those long dead who lay in the earth, will rise again, they will arise and shout for joy.......
We are told exactly when this will happen; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Douggg]

Your reply is entirely opinion and supposition.
No one should take any notice of this sort of unbiblical teaching.

A verse that proves the dead 'sleep in the earth', is:
Isaiah 26:19 But Your dead will live, those long dead who lay in the earth, will rise again, they will arise and shout for joy.......
We are told exactly when this will happen; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

All that means is that the bodies of them who have died in Christ will be resurrected incorruptible and shout for joy in their incorruptible bodies.

 

[keras]

All that means is that the bodies of them who have died in Christ will be resurrected incorruptible and shout for joy in their incorruptible bodies.

Sure. My point was that the dead are not conscious.
You simply have no scriptural support for your beliefs.

We know when the dead will rise; Revelation 20:11-15, AFTER the Millennium. That is when 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will take place.

 

[Timtofly]

My point was that Samuel was 'sleeping', he was unconscious and the Witch of Endor used Satanic powers to wake him.

Not sure it was about sleep, Samuel was complaining about. Coming up out of the earth would be like living in an earthquake, and a bumpy ride.

 

[Timtofly]

Your reply is entirely opinion and supposition.
No one should take any notice of this sort of unbiblical teaching.

A verse that proves the dead 'sleep in the earth', is:
Isaiah 26:19 But Your dead will live, those long dead who lay in the earth, will rise again, they will arise and shout for joy.......
We are told exactly when this will happen; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

 

[DavidPT]

A verse that proves the dead 'sleep in the earth', is:
Isaiah 26:19 But Your dead will live, those long dead who lay in the earth, will rise again, they will arise and shout for joy.......
We are told exactly when this will happen; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

You then need to switch to Amil and quit acting like any of that can fit with Premil somehow. Maybe then you might actually have others agreeing with you here, that being Amils. At least it would be better than no one agreeing with you here. Regardless whether Premil is the correct position or not, what you are proposing can not work with that position, period. It's a major red flag if only one person holds a position that no one else on the planet holds. There is no way in the world that only one person can be correct about something and that everyone else are plain wrong.

 

[keras]

You then need to switch to Amil and quit acting like any of that can fit with Premil somehow. Maybe then you might actually have others agreeing with you here, that being Amils. At least it would be better than no one agreeing with you here. Regardless whether Premil is the correct position or not, what you are proposing can not work with that position, period. It's a major red flag if only one person holds a position that no one else on the planet holds. There is no way in the world that only one person can be correct about something and that everyone else are plain wrong.

PreMills and AMills can have their precious beliefs. Both are wrong.

As for me, as long as my position complies with what God informs us thru His Prophets, I am in the majority.
As for other people agreeing, why should I worry about that? It is up to every individual to decide their position regarding end time events.
The sad thing is that most Christians simply don't care to study or even try to understand God's plans for our future.
I view this attitude as a sin, albeit a minor one.

It will be people who have failed to ascertain the truth of what will happen, who will be shocked and terrified when the Lord suddenly sends His fiery wrath to reset our civilization.
In many cases this unexpected event will cause a loss of faith and their subsequent demise. 1 Peter 4:12-19

 

[Timtofly]

You then need to switch to Amil and quit acting like any of that can fit with Premil somehow. Maybe then you might actually have others agreeing with you here, that being Amils. At least it would be better than no one agreeing with you here. Regardless whether Premil is the correct position or not, what you are proposing can not work with that position, period. It's a major red flag if only one person holds a position that no one else on the planet holds. There is no way in the world that only one person can be correct about something and that everyone else are plain wrong.

It would still be pre-mill, with a post mill "rapture". No rapture at all prior to the Millennium. More an arapturist than an amil.

 

[keras]

It would still be pre-mill, with a post mill "rapture". No rapture at all prior to the Millennium. More an arapturist than an amil.

Thanks Timtofly, your posts are renowned for adding to the general confusion!