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November 2004

mjterry87

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Hey guys,

Now I know that this is not the political board, but I have a question for my fellow Messianics. Are most Jews liberal? I think that they would be, because they are a minority. Joe Liberman is a democrat, moderate, but the way the democratic party is heading he is pretty liberal. Anyways my other question is who will you be voting for in November, Bush or Kerry? If I could vote, I would vote for Bush, because he is a strong conservative, and he removed Saddam Hussein from power. His conservative values go with the teachings of the Torah and Yeshua who is the Torah. Though To me John Kerry goes against the Torah because of his views on abortion, and really his liberal attitude which tends to approve immoralality in the U.S., aka Gay marrage, and drug use. Anyways I just wanted to know where you guys are on this.


Shalom :wave:
 

simchat_torah

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There is actually a rather large swinging over the past 5 years in Judaism towards Conservativism. Previously, it is true, the Jewish vote was predominantly liberal. I think the liberalism of today has gone too far for the typical Jewish mindset. This scares a lot of Democratic leaders because they know they are losing a rather large segment of their voters.

There are a number of political commentaries you can read regarding this new conservative trend among Jews.

shalom,
yafet
 
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Henaynei

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BTW - Bush

less federal government

more support of absolutes in morals, with a documentable standard

federal government focused on it's Constitutional job: provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare (not a welfare state!) and secure the blessings of liberty for our selves and our posterity.
 
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Katydid

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I'm military, I like getting decent pay raises that at least cover inflation, I like for my husband to have properly trained troopies under him (considering that they will be the ones standing by him), and I like for him to have up to date equiptment. I will definately without a doubt be voting for Bush.
 
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mjterry87

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You know, you will hear a lot of people say that Bush took us to this pointless war, and that jobs are down, and that he is brain dead. The truth is thought that we had to go to Iraq, Saddam Hussein was a evil anti-semetic tyrant. We lost jobs because of 9/11, and because of Bill Clinton. George Bush graduated from an Iroy league college. He was governor of Texas, and a successful business man. To say that he is an idiot is just stupid. I admit when he talks he looks a little dumb, but that is just how his personality is. LOL Anyways thanks for telling me what you guys think, we all seem to be on the same page.

The truth is that America is at a turning point, and we can have an America with more traditional and moral values with strong leadership with George Bush. Or we can have a liberal secular society with dwindleing moral values with UN leadership with John Kerry.

Shalom :wave:
 
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JewishHeart

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Bush is an outstanding leader. I agree with most of his policies, but even if I didn't I would have to say that his strong leadership is proven. Policies are very important to me, but a president who has guts to lead impresses me more than policy. He is also a fine example of servant leadership. Most liberals don't like strong leaders because it is a dominanting image to them, but without strong leadership and guts we as a country will look weak to our many enemies.

I am a conservative also against abortion, pro-family ,etc. Sadly enough I believe even the pro-family movement is getting more liberal with cultural developement. Yesterday's liberalism is today's conservatism, and who knows what today's liberalism is !!!

I would also like to say that although I disagree with Ariel Sharon on the disengagement plan, he is one of Israel's most strongest leaders ever and for this I respect him.
 
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mjterry87

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Now I have a question about the politics of Israel. Is Ariel Sharon a conservative or liberal? What different political parties are their in Israel. I don't like him removing the Isralies from Gaza, but I do like him building that wall in the West Bank.
 
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Henaynei

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OIY!! I'll leave this question to those actually in Israel - LOL - they have enough political parties that if you invited one person from each you'd have a football team!!! Granted, they would never be able to agree on what to use for a ball, much less what to do with it once they had it, but hey, it'd still be fun to watch ;)
 
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JewishHeart

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Ariel Sharon is part of the right-wing Likkud party. Likkud is not what you would consider far-right though, although it sympathasizes with the far right. Many in the Likkud are pro-settlement, as Ariel Sharon once was as well. The Likkud's mainline agenda is not settlement expansion though, it is defense. The Likkud has promoted the settlements due to their strategic positions to help Israel defend itself and have a base to operate from. "Demographics" is a word being slapped around from the middle left (Labor) to the center (Shinui) to the middle right (Likkud). The far left ( Meretz, Am Echad, Arab Israeli parties) and the far right ( United Torah Judaism, Moledet, Shas, National Relegious Party, etc.) do not like to talk of demographic issues. Here is the main differences in the parties.

The Far Left- Meretz (Yossi Beilin), Am Echad (Amir Peretz), Israeli Arab Parties ... basically a united Israel with Palestinians and Israelis under one nation living together. Israelis should return all land "stolen" from Palestinians. The right of return for Palestinians in other Arab nations to all of Israel. A democratic socialistic state of Muslims and Jews together. No seperation fence

The Middle Left - Labour ( Shimon Peres, Ehud Barak, etc.)...going back to the borders of pre-1967 Israel with a few tiny exceptions. An Israeli-Jewish state and Palestinian state side by side living in peace. Peace for land. Negotiations work better than defense. Socialism. ( The views of the middle left is often presented by Haaretz newspaper). Seperation fence exactly on 67 borders.

The center- Shinui (Tommy Lapid, Avraham Poraz)... More on the lines of Likkud about seperation fence, defense issues, but more on the lines of Labour in settlement issues with a few exceptions from Labour of needed settlements (Shinui believes we should keep Ariel and the Golan). In all, they believe in good relationship with America. Their hardcore issues are venemously against the far right and the far left. They are mad at the far right for forcing Shabatt on the secular public, orthodox not serving in the army, stealing money from the govt for yeshivas, trying to force orthodox judaism on the people of Israel and not allowing reformed or conservative jews to make aliyah (even messianics). They believe in a plurality Jewish state (reform, orthodox, conservative, and even messianic). They are mad at the far left for bringing Israel's economy "to the pits of hell" by promoting socialism. Shinui is hardcore capitalists. They do believe in strong defense though and Israel's right as a sovreign nation!

The Middle Right - Likkud ( Ariel Sharon, BB Netanyahu, Jabotinsky, etc.) .... the party majority believes in strong defense by all means. They wage war on terrorism. They promote the seperation fence. They also believe in the settlements for strategic purposes (less for relegious purposes, even though the party policy did start out for relegios purposes it has evolved into strategic purposes). They believe a few settlements need to be torn down and left for demographic and strategic purposes, but the majority need to be kept in Judea and Samaria and the Golan. It believes in capitalism and is very strong in having a unity government. This party is often torn between many issues having those who lean towards the center and those who lean towards the far right. This is now the controlling party.

The Far RIght- ( United Torah Judaism, Moledet, National Relegios Party, Shas) - an orthodox state with yeshiva as govt jobs and complete welfare for those who have more than 10 children. The Beit Din is the controlling Justice Dept and Orthodox Jews alone can make aliyah ( reformed and conservative arent jews). Settlment expansion and shipping all the Palestinians to Jordan for now until we also conquer Jordan. Strong Defense done by the seculars who decide not to be Orthodox. Anti-Zionism until Messiah comes. This of course is not the rule of all the far right parties. For instance Moledet is not an orthodox party, but promotes the expansion and shipping. The NRP (National Relegious Party) believes Orthodox should serve in the army and are Zionist. Shas is the promoter exactly of all the above, concentrating more on the relegious issues than the land issues (even though it believes in the land issues).

Hope this helps...

I am a mixture of Likkud (defense issues), Shinui (capitalism and relegious freedom) , and NRP-Moledet (on land issues and Zionism). I despise both Shas, United Torah Judaism, Meretz, and Am Echad. I can understand Labour even though I do not agree with them.

My wife usually votes for Likkud even though we are tempted to vote for Shinui to end relegious persecution. She has voted once for Moledet (secular far-rightists) when the land issue was crucial. Now that the defense issue is the most crucial... I say vote for Likkud with Shinui and Moledet as a partner.
 
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JewishHeart

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settlement expansion... for Muledet (until Iraq :D)

Likkud doesn't really have a stance on immigration... Sharon (Likkud) put Shinui in immigration after Shas had it for 20 years consecutive. Sharon worked with Shas first though during his first election, but changed it to Shinui due to Shas demanding too much and threatening to break up his unity coalition. SO Shinui is making alot of changes that Shas placed during 20 years of being the head of the interior ministry and immigration. ( Ironically Shinui means "change" in English). So I guess Likkud's stance now is more on the lines of Shinui via they placed Shinui there. There is recent talks of placing Shas back into the govt though.
 
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JewishHeart

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There is alot of changes to make...both legal and illegal changes that Shas implemented. The legal aspects are that of allowing those who went through a reformed or conservative conversion to be considered for aliyah (Shinui). Shas implemented only Orthodox conversions. Another one is the messianic issue about giving up their rights to aliyah. The illegal stuff Shas implemeted are plenty (that did not pass through the Knesset, but Shas put them in anyways). It will take many years to change the system Shas implemented, but Shinui is commited to it. One of those illegal acts is blacklisting believers who according to the law deserve to be treated as citizens after they have made aliyah, or blacklisting Gentile believers who are married to Israelis who legally should also get rights no matter what they believe. Shas blacklists cooperate with antimissionary groups who research info on believers lives. This is all illegal. They do more illegal stuff, but this is what I know as a believer. Shinui has a lot to change and it will take a while.

Shinui is a party based on integrity (ironically even though they Lapid himself is an atheist). They are actually the most moral party with the least scandals in history for atheists. I personally am quite impressed by decisions, morals, and taking the hard road for integrity's-sake type politics they display.
 
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