• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

"Nothing today justifies a war. This region really does not need another war.

cenimo

Jesus Had A 12 Man A-Team
Mar 17, 2002
2,000
78
To your right
Visit site
✟25,182.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If it wasn't for Americans you would have put that post up in German, if your grandparents had still been around to have your parents.

When DeGaulle told the US Army to pull out of France and was asked if that included all the WW II veterans buried over there he didn't know what to say.
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,917
1,530
20
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟70,235.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Today at 03:44 PM tamtam92 said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644818#post644818)
What's your opinion about France, German, Belgian policy ?


I think the "Axis of Weasels" nickname fits excellently. How would the French have felt if we'd followed the same advice in 1940? The French once had a fairly good tradition of defending liberty elsewhere, but I think the country's leaders have been spoiled by the last fifty years of unprecedented success in bringing about peaceful resolutions to problems. They seem to have forgotten what happens when a genocidal madman gets himself a big army and lots of weaponry.

It is worth noticing that Iraqi civilians who are sure they can speak anonymously seem to be largely in favor of a war - not because they think they'll win, but because losing a war with the U.S. is one of the best things that can happen to your country, if it's currently poor and oppressed.

I think people should be happy that the most powerful military in the world is in the hands of people who would really rather have more allies than more territory.
 
Upvote 0
You know, it really serves no purpose to lord American victories and PAST support over the French and other countries. Why, if the French hadn't sent us 7,000 soldiers to Yorktown, we wouldn't be the United States today, we'd be a British colony.
And for once, I too agree with President Chirac. Ariel Sharon's caused enough trouble as it is, and there's absolutely no pretense for war. Except black gold, of course. When it comes to possible wars, you can never forget huge potential payoffs to already-rich Republican donors.
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,917
1,530
20
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟70,235.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Today at 06:17 PM Caffeine Socialism said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645117#post645117)
You know, it really serves no purpose to lord American victories and PAST support over the French and other countries. Why, if the French hadn't sent us 7,000 soldiers to Yorktown, we wouldn't be the United States today, we'd be a British colony.

Agreed. And they seem to have lost that spirit.


And for once, I too agree with President Chirac. Ariel Sharon's caused enough trouble as it is, and there's absolutely no pretense for war.

No, of course not. I mean, so what if Hussein gets nuclear weapons, and has a long history of using weapons of mass destruction on civilian targets? He probably can't get a missile as far as France for at least ten more years, and we should probably at least give him a chance to build up a decent army so we can have a fair fight.

Sharon is a red herring; he has nothing to do with the problems in Iraq.

Except black gold, of course. When it comes to possible wars, you can never forget huge potential payoffs to already-rich Republican donors.

I always wonder about this, because it seems pretty obvious to me that, if anything, oil companies would want *LESS* oil from Iraq, so they could make more money on the oil they have from everywhere else.
 
Upvote 0

strathyboy

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2002
761
2
Visit site
✟1,376.00
Today at 02:42 AM ern said this in Post #6 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645389#post645389)

France and Iraq aren't exactly enemies. France has many deals with Iraq, plus Iraq owes France money. This is likely why the French are against war in Iraq.

You are of course aware that Iraq owes the US money too, right?

posted by seebs

The French once had a fairly good tradition of defending liberty elsewhere, but I think the country's leaders have been spoiled by the last fifty years of unprecedented success in bringing about peaceful resolutions to problems. They seem to have forgotten what happens when a genocidal madman gets himself a big army and lots of weaponry.

Hussein is hardly the threat Hitler was. Iraq doesn't have a network of alliances, doesn't have the best equipment, doesn't have the best troops, and would be slaughtered by a fraction of the American army if they showed any aggression at this point. It's no comparison.
 
Upvote 0

Pete Harcoff

PeteAce - In memory of WinAce
Jun 30, 2002
8,304
72
✟9,884.00
Faith
Other Religion
Upvote 0

Aviyah

Shalom uv'rachah b'Yeshua
Jan 20, 2003
329
1
✟475.00
Faith
Messianic
Today at 09:39 PM Pete Harcoff said this in Post #8 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645793#post645793)

*snort* I love how some Americans think they single-handedly won WW2, despite not entering the war until 2 years AFTER it had begun. :rolleyes:



we did win it single handedly um where was canada i didnt see them there oh i know they all dont have much of a military so they all depend on The americans to bail them all out, and yet they sit here and trash on America and wonder what they could get out America for free
 
Upvote 0

Annabel Lee

Beware the Thought Police
Feb 8, 2002
14,466
1,165
116
Q'onoS
✟46,727.00
Faith
Christian
Politics
US-Others
Today at 09:47 PM Soldier_of _God said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645810#post645810)

we did win it single handedly um where was canada i didnt see them there oh i know they all dont have much of a military so they all depend on The americans to bail them all out, and yet they sit here and trash on America and wonder what they could get out America for free

I don't see anyone trashing on the U.S.

Disagreeing with American foreign policy does not equal trashing.
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Site Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟80,762.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Occupying Iraq; "War," European Style
By Paul Walfield

The "old" Europe has a plan that on the surface appears imaginative, but if implemented as proposed, would be harder to sell than Cheez-Wiz and a box of wine to a Frenchman.

Evidently, "old" Europe's new definition of war also includes a "shot" across the bow of the United States.

The United Nations passed resolution 1441, which demanded the disarmament of Iraq of all its weapons of mass destruction. Iraq has so far refused to cooperate, and being the righteous and steadfast folks that they are, the UN has likewise refused to accept "no" for an answer.

The United States wants to enforce the resolution militarily and following the conflict remain in country to ensure a peaceful Iraq will immerge from the conflict. So far, the detractors from military intervention have complained that "no one" is talking about how long we will have to remain in Iraq after the war, the potential astronomical costs and last but not least, how dare we impose ourselves on the free and sovereign Iraqi people.

However, if you say "please." and promise to take years to negotiate the occupation of a country without threatening to bomb innocent schoolchildren, all is copasetic.

Germany and France have "unveiled" their secret plan to avert war in Iraq. It is a simple and ingenious plan. Thousands of inspectors, guarded by tens of thousand of armed soldiers will take over Iraq without firing a shot. All of Iraq will become a no-fly zone and all of its institutions will come under international control. All they need is for Saddam Hussein to sign on the dotted line, and war is averted.

Though being contradictory is not to be avoided. While chastising America for not understanding the perils and costs of occupying Iraq after war, German Foreign Minister Fischer said, "Is the United States ready for a long-term presence?" then adding, "The idea (Iraq) will suddenly blossom into a democracy, I do not share." Germany then proposed long term occupation of Iraq by German and French troops with American help. Go figure.

It is "war," as defined by the 21st Century French and Germans. Unlike in the past when Germany defined war as kill everything in sight; they have joined the French definition of war as "are my hands raised high enough?" Continuing the French tradition and axiom that giving up is better than standing tall.

Saddam Hussein, driven with the courage of someone who doesn't have to fight, will no doubt balk at the idea. However, he will surely desire to maintain the appearance of wanting to negotiate the occupation of his country for many months and probably years, which is certainly what the French and Germans, along with the Russians are really after.

The ostensible motive of "old" Europe is humanitarian, but the reality is quite different. Keeping a vile tyrant like Saddam in power cannot be humanitarian in the long run, au contraire, it is to weaken the United States among other things. The "old" Europe had already begun that strategy by blocking, at least so far, NATO from aligning itself with the United States, and America's plan to protect NATO member Turkey with patriot missiles; in the event of war with Iraq.

If the US opposes the plan, America is seen as the bad guy, or worse "proves" the United States just wants war, and in effect allows the possibility that the dissenters were right all along, America wants to be an imperialistic power.

If America demands that the proposal to "peacefully occupy" Iraq be what it purports to be and has teeth, America falls into the trap of long and protracted negotiations during which time, support for armed conflict will diminish. America is between a rock and a hard place.

The United States can on the one hand, take the initiative and run with it. Call for a new resolution authorizing the US to move its troops into Iraq and take over the Iraqi institutions and Iraqi military bases, and for free rein in Iraq. It must do this quickly to avoid further "revelations" and proposals by 'old" Europe.

The new resolution must fully outline the spirit of the proposal for occupying Iraq, and must be announced quickly to avoid any more surprises and most importantly set a date for "occupation." We could demand that French, German, Russian, and Canadian troops be the first into Iraq to ensure peaceful compliance by The Hussein regime.

The Europeans will have to go on defense. America cannot afford to allow more time and obfuscation from the French, Germans, and Russians. Their purpose is to lessen America's standing as the world's sole superpower.

Allowing rogue nations to remain in power is to their advantage in the short run. Embarrassing the US and humiliating our President and foreign policy is a strategic goal of "old" Europe. They are in fact our rivals, and not our allies. The term "ally" is from the French, "alier," which means to bind. The only thing the French want to "bind" is a coalition against American interests.

On the other hand, The United States can reject the plan. The US can point out that even with thousands of inspectors and troops occupying Iraq, Saddam Hussein will remain in power and the Iraqi's can still not cooperate with the inspectors; merely wait them out and continue as they have always done in the past. Any exercise to "beef-up" the inspectors is an exercise in futility and allows the Iraqi regime more time to do the evils outlined at the UN by the Secretary of State.

Dealing with rogue nations and terrorists was pronounced by President Bush as a long and tough battle; dealing with our former "allies" must be fought with the same determination. The United States can truly say, in the words of Secretary of State Colin Powell, "enough…, enough."
 
Upvote 0

chickenman

evil unamerican
May 8, 2002
1,376
7
43
Visit site
✟24,874.00
yes, the ATTACK by Al Quaeda, not iraq

the fact that the far bigger threat of osama bin laden hasn't been dealt with by america has been swept under the rug and replaced by the new threat of "iraq", even though we're not exactly sure what the threat is, because weapons inspectors haven't found what the iraqis are hiding

P.S. I like your article gunnysgt, apparently allies aren't allowed to disagree with each other

He that has the biggest army is right?
 
Upvote 0

Auntie

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2002
7,647
658
Alabama
✟36,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yesterday at 03:44 PM tamtam92 said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644818#post644818)

This region really does not need another war."

--French president Chirac

Well that's not often i agree with my president ! :)

What's your opinion about France, German, Belgian policy ?

I'm happy there's someone to be in the way of americans for one !


I am more than ready for America to shake the dust off, and let France take care of France. The same goes for Germany, Belgium, Greece, Canada, etc., etc., etc.

America has no friends, that I know of. Except maybe Australia, but who knows. I am sick and tired of so called "friends" of America, baloney, America has no friends.
 
Upvote 0

Auntie

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2002
7,647
658
Alabama
✟36,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Today at 01:45 AM bigat said this in Post #14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645964#post645964)

Good thing 9/11 happened to the U.S. If it had happened to France or Germany they'd be screaming for the U.S. to come help them!

How fast we forget the ATTACK of 9/11.


That's exactly the point, bigat. France and Germany WILL be attacked, it's only a matter of time. No one is exempt from terrorist actions.
 
Upvote 0

Kiwi

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2002
517
16
51
New Zealand
Visit site
✟963.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is this going to be another 'america verses the rest of the world' thread? I hope not, cause that theme is getting borrrrring. I can understand why france, germany and belgium are relucent to back any war. It is still in the living memory of many of the horrible times during WWII. While Americans, australians, canadians and NZer's fought in the war in europe, their woman and children were safe at home. In Europe everyone were victims, men, woman and children. Many died from starvation, as well as bombing. The infactstructure was leveled to the ground. They probably realize that war equals death of many innocent civilians, not just soliders.
 
Upvote 0

Auntie

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2002
7,647
658
Alabama
✟36,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Today at 02:27 AM chickenman said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=646004#post646004)

the majority of australians disagree with supporting bush's war on iraq, the guy in charge of our country is bush's little lapdog though

what the people think obviously doesn't matter too much


What the PEOPLE think is EXACTLY what matters! Leaders come and go, I am more interested in what the citizens of a country thinks about America.

You show great disrespect for your Prime Minister, chickenman. But whatever, you could care even less about the people of America.
 
Upvote 0