Nothing but wars and killing

[Bob Crowley]

Good posts people, many thanks.

I understand why but it just seems that in OT times there was a tremendous amount of bloodshed compared to the NT which is vastly different in many ways. And i understand its telling a different story anyway.

Listening to the Bible in a year has opened up to me just how much warefare the Israelites went through.

It just seems like, to me, that the OT is mostly about war and conquering other nations...

The New Testament times weren't all that peaceful.

A Most Violent Year: The World into which Jesus was Born

As for our own Western civilisation, I was born in 1954, 9 years after WW2 ended and close to a year after the Korean War finished.

Granted Australia hasn't been invaded, but we've been directly involved in several conflicts in my lifetime - the Confrontation, Vietnam, Gulf Wars 1 & 2, East Timor, and Afghanistan.

I lifted this article from the New York Times. It goes back to 2003, but it's relevant.

'What Every Person Should Know About War' (Published 2003)

At the beginning of 2003 there were 30 wars going on around the world. These included conflicts in Afghanistan, Algeria, Burundi, China, Colombia, the Congo, India, Indonesia, Israel, Iraq, Liberia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Peru, the Philippines, Russia, Somalia, Sudan, and Uganda.

There were wars in the Old Testament? So what's new?

 

[Lost4words]

The New Testament times weren't all that peaceful.

A Most Violent Year: The World into which Jesus was Born

As for our own Western civilisation, I was born in 1954, 9 years after WW2 ended and close to a year after the Korean War finished.

Granted Australia hasn't been invaded, but we've been directly involved in several conflicts in my lifetime - the Confrontation, Vietnam, Gulf Wars 1 & 2, East Timor, and Afghanistan.

I lifted this article from the New York Times. It goes back to 2003, but it's relevant.

'What Every Person Should Know About War' (Published 2003)



There were wars in the Old Testament? So what's new?

Its just how it reads. War and killing continuosly...sad.

 

[Bob Crowley]

If you haven't read them already, read 1 & 2 Maccabees. That will really turn you off.

 

[Lost4words]

If you haven't read them already, read 1 & 2 Maccabees. That will really turn you off.

Just gone through those..

 

[Bob Crowley]

Did they put your tail between your legs...?

 

[Lost4words]

Did they put your tail between your legs...?

Rrrrrrrr...woof!

 

[Davy]

I been listening to the Bible in a year with Fr Mike Schmitz since Jan 1.

It is the first time i have gone through the whole Bible. We are on day 305.

Blimey, so much war, murder etc in the old testament!!! Killing, killing, killing. Slaughter after slaughter!!!

To be honest, it sickens me.

It should. Truth be told, there are many other events written of in The Old Testament that are also sickening, like the murder of God's prophets by the followers of Baal, and one of the worse events, Judah's falling into Baal worship with sacrificing their children in fire, which God said such a thing never entered His mind!

All the evil in this world is to make God's people desire for it to be over, and bring Christ's future reign here on earth and destruction of the wicked and the devil. The devil caused this present world time we are in, and that is why there is so much evil, and why nothing is perfect in this present world, nor can be, except Jesus Christ when He walked this earth. Our desire is not this world, but the world to come.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It should. Truth be told, there are many other events written of in The Old Testament that are also sickening, like the murder of God's prophets by the followers of Baal, and one of the worse events, Judah's falling into Baal worship with sacrificing their children in fire, which God said such a thing never entered His mind!

All the evil in this world is to make God's people desire for it to be over, and bring Christ's future reign here on earth and destruction of the wicked and the devil. The devil caused this present world time we are in, and that is why there is so much evil, and why nothing is perfect in this present world, nor can be, except Jesus Christ when He walked this earth. Our desire is not this world, but the world to come.

agree nothing in this world is perfect. Disagree that Christ will reign on the earth...if you mean the 1000 year reign...which is figurative in my view as well as the view of much of Christendom. God, after Judgement Day will make a new heaven and a new earth. God, the triune God, will reign in heaven and in earth. Praise the Lord we have that future to look forward to!

 

[Davy]

agree nothing in this world is perfect. Disagree that Christ will reign on the earth...if you mean the 1000 year reign...which is figurative in my view as well as the view of much of Christendom. God, after Judgement Day will make a new heaven and a new earth. God, the triune God, will reign in heaven and in earth. Praise the Lord we have that future to look forward to!

That's a truly funny statement, that Christ's future "thousand years" reign is considered a figure or speculation by most of the Christian Church. That truly is wishful thinking on your part. Does your belief in such a fallacy as that help make you feel more secure by holding to such a fallacy?

The future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus AND His faithful elect, on earth, with His promised "rod of iron", over all nations, will be a literal physical reign upon this earth. Zechariah 14 specifically shows His literal, physical return back to this earth on the "day of the Lord", and bringing all the saints with Him.

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
KJV

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him:
4 And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

I'll bet you didn't even know that only those of The Just in Christ's future thousand years reign will be allowed to approach Him and serve Him at His table. You probably don't recall Jesus pointing to the marriage supper He promised to have with His servants in His future Kingdom...

Matt 26:29
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.
KJV

You probably also missed the Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture that reveals the future Millennium reign by Jesus with the wicked dwelling outside the gates of the holy city, while His elect only are allowed inside with access to the Tree of Life, a real, literal tree bearing its many fruits per Ezekiel 47.

The Amillennial doctrine from men is designed to support Satan's plan for takeover of this earth, and setup his kingdom in the last days over the nations. It is strongly a doctrine held by supporters of a "one world government".

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That's a truly funny statement, that Christ's future "thousand years" reign is considered a figure or speculation by most of the Christian Church. That truly is wishful thinking on your part. Does your belief in such a fallacy as that help make you feel more secure by holding to such a fallacy?

The future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus AND His faithful elect, on earth, with His promised "rod of iron", over all nations, will be a literal physical reign upon this earth. Zechariah 14 specifically shows His literal, physical return back to this earth on the "day of the Lord", and bringing all the saints with Him.

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
KJV

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him:
4 And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

I'll bet you didn't even know that only those of The Just in Christ's future thousand years reign will be allowed to approach Him and serve Him at His table. You probably don't recall Jesus pointing to the marriage supper He promised to have with His servants in His future Kingdom...

Matt 26:29
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.
KJV

You probably also missed the Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture that reveals the future Millennium reign by Jesus with the wicked dwelling outside the gates of the holy city, while His elect only are allowed inside with access to the Tree of Life, a real, literal tree bearing its many fruits per Ezekiel 47.

The Amillennial doctrine from men is designed to support Satan's plan for takeover of this earth, and setup his kingdom in the last days over the nations. It is strongly a doctrine held by supporters of a "one world government".

Hello Davy...don't know you at all, but you don't present as a very pleasant Christian to be honest. Just had surgery one week ago and so won't respond for awhile and then some should I forget...what with Holidays coming up on us. I rarely get on this site btw.
I will say that my position is that one should never build a doctrine based on what types of feelings it produces.
You fail to see that your doctrine has the NT books of the Bible contradicting each other. You should be slow to speak at this point in your growth until all passages confirm one another.

 

[jamiec]

I been listening to the Bible in a year with Fr Mike Schmitz since Jan 1.

It is the first time i have gone through the whole Bible. We are on day 305.

Blimey, so much war, murder etc in the old testament!!! Killing, killing, killing. Slaughter after slaughter!!!

To be honest, it sickens me.

Read the Prophets instead. They lived amid war, siege, the threat of invasion, invasion, disaster & exile - but there is far more to them than war alone.

War is prominent in the OT - it was frequent in the experience of small (therefore vulnerable) countries, such as Israel & its neighbours - but there is far more to the OT than war. Wars are distributed very unevenly throughout the OT; in the book of Genesis, there is war only briefly, in chapter 14.

As for the NT, there is remarkably little war there. There is the shadow of war, but that is it.

There were a lot of smallish states in the OT world - when the Roman Empire rose to power, it did so by annexing and uniting many states and cities that had formally been independent, or more or less independent. It had the will and the means to impose its authority on the area that it ruled; as a result, it was able, not without problems, to maintain the unity of the area that it ruled. As a result. the Roman world, which covered most of the OT world, was far more peaceful than the world that we come across in the Old Testament. The Roman Empire was enormous. The fact that it covered so much territory meant that it ruled areas which had previously been at war with each other.

 

[Davy]

Hello Davy...don't know you at all, but you don't present as a very pleasant Christian to be honest.

I just get tired of having to correspond with brethren that don't take the time to do their own Bible study, but instead just regurgitate whatever some preacher behind a pulpit says. Those who reject the Revelation 20 Scripture that plainly declares at Jesus' return there will be a period of a "thousand years" of His reign with His faithful elect, those are discarding God in His Word by rejecting that Scripture. There are several other references to those events in Revelation 20 also, so really there is no excuse to believe on men's false doctrines of Amillennialism (rejection of Christ's future thousand years reign over the unsaved nations, which begins at His future return to this earth).

So if you want to fellowship in God's Word with me, great, but let's stick to God's Word, and not men's leaven doctrines. I left denominationalism many, many years ago.

 

[Lost4words]

I just get tired of having to correspond with brethren that don't take the time to do their own Bible study, but instead just regurgitate whatever some preacher behind a pulpit says. Those who reject the Revelation 20 Scripture that plainly declares at Jesus' return there will be a period of a "thousand years" of His reign with His faithful elect, those are discarding God in His Word by rejecting that Scripture. There are several other references to those events in Revelation 20 also, so really there is no excuse to believe on men's false doctrines of Amillennialism (rejection of Christ's future thousand years reign over the unsaved nations, which begins at His future return to this earth).

So if you want to fellowship in God's Word with me, great, but let's stick to God's Word, and not men's leaven doctrines. I left denominationalism many, many years ago.

Interpretation. Like grains of sand on a beach!

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I just get tired of having to correspond with brethren that don't take the time to do their own Bible study, but instead just regurgitate whatever some preacher behind a pulpit says. Those who reject the Revelation 20 Scripture that plainly declares at Jesus' return there will be a period of a "thousand years" of His reign with His faithful elect, those are discarding God in His Word by rejecting that Scripture. There are several other references to those events in Revelation 20 also, so really there is no excuse to believe on men's false doctrines of Amillennialism (rejection of Christ's future thousand years reign over the unsaved nations, which begins at His future return to this earth).

So if you want to fellowship in God's Word with me, great, but let's stick to God's Word, and not men's leaven doctrines. I left denominationalism many, many years ago.

FYI...I've read, and continue to read, Scripture...been through it a few times...and you?
No Preacher helped me formulate my doctrine...though I am grounded in church doctrine...and you?
The thousand year reign is symbolic of the unknown time of Christ's return...short or long as 2 Peter 3:8 infers. We as Christians, reign in Christ on this earth now and through Judgement Day. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms...Ephesians 2:6. 5:14; Colossians 3:1 and Revelation 20:6. Christ is our head and we are His body we reign with Him now carrying out His will/reign on earth here and now.
Revelation needs interpretation...remember the prophets...esp Daniel...and that the interpretation is given to them. This is why I said to you that you need to be silent until you've carefully considered what you've stated as your doctrine...you may lead others astray. Have you considered that Revelations are highly symbolic and require interpretation?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I been listening to the Bible in a year with Fr Mike Schmitz since Jan 1.
It is the first time i have gone through the whole Bible. We are on day 305.
Blimey, so much war, murder etc in the old testament!!! Killing, killing, killing. Slaughter after slaughter!!!
To be honest, it sickens me.

Yeah - it's pretty bad. There are some high points though.
My assumption is, God revealed something of Himself to ancient people and they accepted as much as they could - but they were also monsters in part as well. The Bible contains both?
Each time God revealed Himself - the people were (hopefully) better, but still bad.
Finally - Jesus comes along and He is like another personality entirely almost. (Jesus even indicates that Moses taught people in line with what their hearts could accept. He said something like "Moses told you that because of the hardness of their hearts, but originally it wasn't like that").

 

[Davy]

FYI...I've read, and continue to read, Scripture...been through it a few times...and you?

I don't just "read", I actually 'study', like Apostle Paul commanded Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15. Just reading a thousand times isn't enough. Only Bible study with the help of The Holy Spirit in Faith on The Father and His Son, and asking Him for understanding, will get it done.

No Preacher helped me formulate my doctrine...though I am grounded in church doctrine...and you?

You said it, you're grounded in "church doctrine", which is different than Biblical doctrine from The Bible. And what you've agreed to per those 'church doctrines' of men, that the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign of Christ with His elect is "figurative" (your term choice), that verifies who you listen to, meaning men's doctrines, because that idea you... did not come up with, it goes all the way back to the 2nd century A.D. It's called Amillennialism. The theory of Amillennialism treats the "thousand years" reign by Christ of Revelation 20 as 'spiritual', and not literal. You simply chose to use the word "figurative", but it's the same idea. So you're not fooling me where you got that old idea.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I don't just "read", I actually 'study', like Apostle Paul commanded Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15. Just reading a thousand times isn't enough. Only Bible study with the help of The Holy Spirit in Faith on The Father and His Son, and asking Him for understanding, will get it done.



You said it, you're grounded in "church doctrine", which is different than Biblical doctrine from The Bible. And what you've agreed to per those 'church doctrines' of men, that the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign of Christ with His elect is "figurative" (your term choice), that verifies who you listen to, meaning men's doctrines, because that idea you... did not come up with, it goes all the way back to the 2nd century A.D. It's called Amillennialism. The theory of Amillennialism treats the "thousand years" reign by Christ of Revelation 20 as 'spiritual', and not literal. You simply chose to use the word "figurative", but it's the same idea. So you're not fooling me where you got that old idea.

You are so very wrong about me...all who read the Bible should try to comprehend it as I of course did and do.
My church doctrine is of the Trinity and the creeds and passages...was never taught a stitch about specifics of end time in Revelation. It is prayer and waiting upon the Lord for answers to the seeming contradiction of Scripture should the 1000 year reign be literal. There are other passages which point to figurative language rather than literal language in Revelation. You are off course. Revelation is just that...a revelation which requires interpretation within the confines of all Scripture.
Not trying to fool anyone...what a silly notion. I only read Scripture not outside books to find my doctrine.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I don't just "read", I actually 'study', like Apostle Paul commanded Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15. Just reading a thousand times isn't enough. Only Bible study with the help of The Holy Spirit in Faith on The Father and His Son, and asking Him for understanding, will get it done.



You said it, you're grounded in "church doctrine", which is different than Biblical doctrine from The Bible. And what you've agreed to per those 'church doctrines' of men, that the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign of Christ with His elect is "figurative" (your term choice), that verifies who you listen to, meaning men's doctrines, because that idea you... did not come up with, it goes all the way back to the 2nd century A.D. It's called Amillennialism. The theory of Amillennialism treats the "thousand years" reign by Christ of Revelation 20 as 'spiritual', and not literal. You simply chose to use the word "figurative", but it's the same idea. So you're not fooling me where you got that old idea.

Do you attend church, btw? We are not to forsake assembly...maybe you could "convert" others to your way of thinking if you don't fit in...in the process you may add to your "learning" and find yourself converted...requires humility and the basis of which is that one is to be patient and gentle in discussions of doctrine ...as Apostle Paul commands Timothy.

 

[Lost4words]

So many with their own individual, unique interpretations of Revelation etc...

 

[Davy]

You are so very wrong about me...all who read the Bible should try to comprehend it as I of course did and do.
....

You are definitely full of... yourself!

You want others to believe as YOU do, and you can't even keep the Revelation 20 Scripture about Christ's future LITERAL "thousand years" reign with His elect? How hypocritical.