Not so complicated...

[Timtofly]

Daniel 9
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel had a vision of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9.

The vision was announced in Daniel 9:23.

The content of the vision followed in Daniel 9:24-27.

The same pattern as for every other vision of Daniel recorded in the book of Daniel.

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word on the planet, past and present, other than yourself.

21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gavri’el, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, swooped down on me in full flight at about the time of the evening sacrifice,
22 and explained things to me. He said, “I have come now, Dani’el, to enable you to understand this vision clearly.
23 At the beginning of your prayers, an answer was given; and I have come to say what it is; because you are greatly loved. Therefore look into this answer, and understand the vision.

Where does it point out Gabriel administered sleeping pills so Daniel could have a vision?

The first time Daniel saw Gabriel, was in the vision that Daniel still could not figure out. Daniel was praying not sleeping when Gabriel physically came to Daniel this time.

Daniel was physically consciously praying which is the normal way people pray. No? When he started his long prayer, God sent Gabriel with the answer. Before Daniel could even finish his prayer, Gabriel was in person, not a vision. The answer was for the vision in chapter 8 that Daniel could not figure out. Most of Daniel 9 was Daniel's prayer, no? It never says Daniel went to sleep praying like the disciples of Jesus who could not stay awake in prayer, but dozed off into physical darkness, in the Garden of Gethsemane. 4 verses make up the answer and it was not a vision.

Paul says we can see Angels as men, and not know they are angels. Is that in your bed at night you see men, or walking down the street in your town, meet a total stranger that could be an angel sent from God? Daniel met Gabriel in a vision, and then later as a physical being with a human body. Abraham fed angels in his tent one day as if they were human. One of those humans was post resurrection Jesus.

 

[jgr]

21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gavri’el, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, swooped down on me in full flight at about the time of the evening sacrifice,
22 and explained things to me. He said, “I have come now, Dani’el, to enable you to understand this vision clearly.
23 At the beginning of your prayers, an answer was given; and I have come to say what it is; because you are greatly loved. Therefore look into this answer, and understand the vision.

Where does it point out Gabriel administered sleeping pills so Daniel could have a vision?

The first time Daniel saw Gabriel, was in the vision that Daniel still could not figure out. Daniel was praying not sleeping when Gabriel physically came to Daniel this time.

Daniel was physically consciously praying which is the normal way people pray. No? When he started his long prayer, God sent Gabriel with the answer. Before Daniel could even finish his prayer, Gabriel was in person, not a vision. The answer was for the vision in chapter 8 that Daniel could not figure out. Most of Daniel 9 was Daniel's prayer, no? It never says Daniel went to sleep praying like the disciples of Jesus who could not stay awake in prayer, but dozed off into physical darkness, in the Garden of Gethsemane. 4 verses make up the answer and it was not a vision.

Paul says we can see Angels as men, and not know they are angels. Is that in your bed at night you see men, or walking down the street in your town, meet a total stranger that could be an angel sent from God? Daniel met Gabriel in a vision, and then later as a physical being with a human body. Abraham fed angels in his tent one day as if they were human. One of those humans was post resurrection Jesus.

Daniel 10
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

No mention of sleeping pills.

 

[Timtofly]

Daniel 10
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

No mention of sleeping pills.

We are talking about Daniel 9. Daniel 10 was a vision. If it calls it a vision it is a vision. Daniel 9 is the explanation of the vision in Daniel 8. Gabriel delivers the message in person, and speaks the 4 verses to Daniel.

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place.
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.
27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

This is not a vision. It is a dialog of an angel in human form. No sleeping pills and no word vision at all.

23 At the beginning of your prayers, an answer was given; and I have come to say what it is; because you are greatly loved. Therefore look into this answer, and understand the vision.

What vision?

27 I, Dani’el, grew weak and was ill for some days. Then I got up and took care of the king’s affairs; but I was appalled at the vision and still couldn’t understand it.

He could not understand this vision in chapter 8.

Chapter 9, still troubled, Daniel starts to pray, not sleep.

 

[jgr]

We are talking about Daniel 9. Daniel 10 was a vision. If it calls it a vision it is a vision. Daniel 9 is the explanation of the vision in Daniel 8. Gabriel delivers the message in person, and speaks the 4 verses to Daniel.

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place.
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.
27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

This is not a vision. It is a dialog of an angel in human form. No sleeping pills and no word vision at all.

23 At the beginning of your prayers, an answer was given; and I have come to say what it is; because you are greatly loved. Therefore look into this answer, and understand the vision.

What vision?

27 I, Dani’el, grew weak and was ill for some days. Then I got up and took care of the king’s affairs; but I was appalled at the vision and still couldn’t understand it.

He could not understand this vision in chapter 8.

Chapter 9, still troubled, Daniel starts to pray, not sleep.

There were no sleeping pills in Daniel 10.

There were no sleeping pills in Daniel 9.

The announcement of the vision followed by the content of the vision.

Same pattern as every other vision that Daniel had.

"If it calls it a vision it is a vision."

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word, past and present, on the planet.

 

[Douggg]

The vision was announced in Daniel 9:23.

jgr, in Daniel 8 (and Daniel 7 which the little horn is involved), it was Daniel himself who announced that he had a vision, and afterward Daniel described the vision he had. Not the angel in Daniel 7. Nor Gabriel in Daniel 8.

Daniel is not announcing any vision in Daniel 9:23, and then Daniel describing the vision.

Gabriel in v23 is referring back to the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 earlier during the third year of Belshazzar's reign, regarding the stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression by the little horn in the time of the end.

 

[Douggg]

This is not a vision. It is a dialog of an angel in human form. No sleeping pills and no word vision at all.

23 At the beginning of your prayers, an answer was given; and I have come to say what it is; because you are greatly loved. Therefore look into this answer, and understand the vision.

What vision?

27 I, Dani’el, grew weak and was ill for some days. Then I got up and took care of the king’s affairs; but I was appalled at the vision and still couldn’t understand it.

He could not understand this vision in chapter 8.

Chapter 9, still troubled, Daniel starts to pray, not sleep.

You have that exactly right.

Although there is some time separation between Daniel 8 and Daniel 9, I am sure that Daniel pondered often over the vision he had in Daniel 8 but could not understand it.

In Daniel 9, Daniel was praying over the return of the Jews from Babylon. And afterward, God sent Gabriel to clear up that matter and to give information on the vision Daniel had back in Daniel 8 about the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation.

 

[Douggg]

That doesn't address my question. I'd asked:

"Where do you find "by the king of Israel" in the biblical text as cited here?"

......or any other Biblical support for what you're asserting would be fine with me.

The Bible does not say exactly what person is to read the law to the assembly of the people.

After Moses, Joshua was the leader. And latter the judges. And then the kings.

 

[Douggg]

Here is a commentary on Daniel. Daniel 8 is agreed by the historical Church to have been fulfilled through the ancient Greek empire from the fourth to second century B.C.

Find some past commentary on what vision in Daniel 9:23 is being referred to, to see if any of those commentators you are following are all knowing.

Because all the grammar disagreements we are having over who the "he" is in Daniel 9:27, dissipates when it is understood that the vision in v23, Gabriel is referring back to the vision Daniel had of the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation in the time of the end.

__________________________________________________

I think because we are living in the time of the end, when understanding of the prophecies is being unsealed, we have a much better understanding of the prophecies than those commentators of the past.

 

[Douggg]

BTW, Moses didn't "confirm the covenant". It's God who confirms His covenants.

A covenant is two sided. Moses confirmed the covenant from the side of the children of Israel - who said "we do" to the terms of the covenant.

 

[jgr]

jgr, in Daniel 8 (and Daniel 7 which the little horn is involved), it was Daniel himself who announced that he had a vision, and afterward Daniel described the vision he had. Not the angel in Daniel 7. Nor Gabriel in Daniel 8.

Daniel is not announcing any vision in Daniel 9:23, and then Daniel describing the vision.

Gabriel in v23 is referring back to the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 earlier during the third year of Belshazzar's reign, regarding the stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression by the little horn in the time of the end.

In Daniel 8, the content of the vision is described not by Daniel, but by Gabriel.

It follows the announcement of the vision.

In Daniel 9, the content of the vision is described not by Daniel, but by Gabriel.

It follows the announcement of the vision.

Daniel 9 is fully congruent and consistent with Daniel 8 in the pattern of the announcement and description of its vision.

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word, past and present, on the planet.

 

[jgr]

Find some past commentary on what vision in Daniel 9:23 is being referred to, to see if any of those commentators you are following are all knowing.

Are you suggesting that you are all knowing?

 

[Douggg]

In Daniel 8, the content of the vision is described not by Daniel, but by Gabriel.

It follows the announcement of the vision.

There is no new vision is Daniel 9. There is proclamation of 70 weeks determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem.

The vision in v23 is the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation in the time of the end.

69 weeks of the 70 weeks is passed. The 70th week which the prince who shall come, the little horn, stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation, still remains.

 

[jgr]

There is no new vision is Daniel 9. There is proclamation of 70 weeks determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem.

The vision in v23 is the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation in the time of the end.

69 weeks of the 70 weeks is passed. The 70th week which the prince who shall come, the little horn, stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation.

The choice:

1. 1700 years of the unanimous testimony of historical defenders of the true faith.
2. Douggg

I wish every decision was this easy.

 

[Douggg]

Are you suggesting that you are all knowing?

I am stating that the commentators that you are entrusting as all knowing - are not.

 

[Douggg]

he choice:

1. 1700 years of the unanimous testimony of historical defenders of the true faith.
2. Douggg

I wish every decision was this easy.

Let's just stick to the what the bible indicates and not get side tracked.

 

[jgr]

I am stating that the commentators that you are entrusting as all knowing - are not.

They are more knowing.

 

[jgr]

Let's just stick to the what the bible indicates and not get side tracked.

The historical defenders of the true faith were not side tracked.

 

[Timtofly]

There were no sleeping pills in Daniel 10.

There were no sleeping pills in Daniel 9.

The announcement of the vision followed by the content of the vision.

Same pattern as every other vision that Daniel had.

"If it calls it a vision it is a vision."

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word, past and present, on the planet.

Still no proof from you Daniel 9 is a vision. Many students of theology are wrong.

Why are you mocking my symbolism as being literal? Do you admit that Gabriel came in human form and actually had a physical conversation with Daniel now? No sleeping pills, no sleep, no vision. I agree about Daniel 9. You are contradicting yourself now about Daniel 10.

 

[Timtofly]

In Daniel 8, the content of the vision is described not by Daniel, but by Gabriel.

It follows the announcement of the vision.

In Daniel 9, the content of the vision is described not by Daniel, but by Gabriel.

It follows the announcement of the vision.

Daniel 9 is fully congruent and consistent with Daniel 8 in the pattern of the announcement and description of its vision.

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word, past and present, on the planet.

You still do not give the vision in Daniel 9.

 

[jgr]

You still do not give the vision in Daniel 9.

Scripture gives it.

Daniel 9:23 -- announcement
Daniel 9:24-27 -- content

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word, past and present, on the planet.