Not so complicated...

[Douggg]

Daniel 9
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

You don't consider touching, informing, and talking to be interacting?

Of course Gabriel was interacting with Daniel in Daniel 9. But Daniel 9 came after the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 interacting with Gabriel.

Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

 

[jgr]

Of course Gabriel was interacting with Daniel in Daniel 9. But Daniel 9 came after the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 interacting with Gabriel.

Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Read the earlier post again. In every instance, the announcement of the vision is followed in the same chapter by the description of the vision.

As it is in chapter 8.

 

[Douggg]

Yes....but as was the theme in Daniel 2....Messiah was promised to bring in an everlasting righteousness and to demonstrate that the True God is God of gods and Lord of Lords. Those that were faithful were His children.....His covenant family. Through the Israelites....came Jesus....the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy....the Son of David....the promised seed of Abraham.

From Ligonier Ministries:
But the end of the dream is the most remarkable part—a rock not cut by human hands would destroy all these kingdoms and become a mountain so large as to fill the whole earth (vv. 44–45). God’s kingdom, not established by human initiative, would rise victorious during the Roman era. Here we have a clear prediction of Jesus Christ. ~
"A Dream of a Statue | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org" A Dream of a Statue​

upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem,

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Jews, Israel, Jerusalem has yet to say regarding Jesus - Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

Read the earlier post again. In every instance, the announcement of the vision is followed in the same chapter by the description of the vision.

The transgression of desolation by the little horn is found only in Daniel 8.

And the following verse in Daniel 8, indicates that Daniel, nor anyone else, really understood the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation at the time of the end.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What I read is the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem, not upon the Messiah.

Only the Messiah could accomplish for Israel what is described in the prophecy and He did it during the 70th week long ago. They could never accomplish those things themselves.

And the Jews, Jerusalem, have yet to say regarding Jesus - blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus was talking to those Jews living at that time in particular. He was condemning them. There is nothing positive about what Jesus said to them throughout Matthew 23. He called them hypocrites, blind guides, snakes and a brood of vipers. You can't apply verse 39 to their descendants when everything He was saying up to that point in Matthew 23 applied to the hypocritical teachers of the law and Pharisees he was talking to at that time. He was declaring their house, their temple which was standing at that time, desolate so what He was saying clearly applied to them in particular and not to their descendants in the distant future.

Scripture teaches that all people, saved and lost, will bow their knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord on judgment day (Isaiah 45:23-24, Romans 14:10-12, Phil 2:9-11).

On judgment day is when those Christ rejecting Jews from that time (any of them who did not repent after that) will see Him for who He really is and bow down and acknowledge that He is Lord due to seeing Him in all His undeniable glory. But, it will be too late at that point for them. Though no one will be able to deny who He is at that point, it will be too late to repent and believe in Him because their destiny was already sealed when they died.

 

[Douggg]

Only the Messiah could accomplish for Israel what is described in the prophecy and He did it during the 70th week long ago. They could never accomplish those things themselves.

Jesus was talking to those Jews living at that time in particular. He was condemning them. There is nothing positive about what Jesus said to them throughout Matthew 23. He called them hypocrites, blind guides, snakes and a brood of vipers. You can't apply verse 39 to their descendants when everything He was saying up to that point in Matthew 23 applied to the hypocritical teachers of the law and Pharisees he was talking to at that time. He was declaring their house, their temple which was standing at that time, desolate so what He was saying clearly applied to them in particular and not to their descendants in the distant future.

Scripture teaches that all people, saved and lost, will bow their knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord on judgment day (Isaiah 45:23-24, Romans 14:10-12, Phil 2:9-11).

On judgment day is when those Christ rejecting Jews from that time (any of them who did not repent after that) will see Him for who He really is and bow down and acknowledge that He is Lord due to seeing Him in all His undeniable glory. But, it will be too late at that point for them. Though no one will be able to deny who He is at that point, it will be too late to repent and believe in Him because their destiny was already sealed when they died.

Jesus was speaking to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, regarding His Second Coming back to Jerusalem, the Mt. of Olives.

 

[mkgal1]

Moses was the leader of Israel at the time, and he was the first to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by reading the law to the gathering of the people. Later, once Israel demanded a king like the surrounding nations, the king became the leader like Moses was. And the responsibility was placed on him. The king was also required to keep a copy of the Torah close at hand.

Do you have Scripture to support that? Because it was the priest's duty, according to Deuteronomy (not even Moses') to read the Law to teach the next generation.

Jesus is now in the role of High Priest....as the eternal Priest (personally....I'm not expecting that to change).

 

[Douggg]

Do you have Scripture to support that? Because it was the priests duty, according to the Deuteronomy (not even Moses') to read the Law to teach the next generation.

It was the priests duty to keep the written copy of the law Moses wrote next to the ark (v25-26) and Mose delivered it to not only the priests but to all of the elders of Israel. So collectively, it was the priests and the elders responsibility to see to it that the law was read every seven years to the assembly of the people.

Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

Moses as the leader of Israel was the first to read the law to the assembly of the people. Later, the kings became the leader of Israel. And the kings were required to keep a copy of the law close by.

Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

____________________________________________

And why doesn't anyone in modern times read the law to the assembly of Israel? 1. they don't have a king. 2. and more importantly, the requirement is to read the law from the place of God's choosing which the Jews take to be the temple mount. Which because of the muslims, Jews cannot even pray there, much less observe the Hakhel.

Could you imagine the uproar it would cause if the leader of Israel were to make a big speech on the temple mount that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever?

The muslims would go to war over it.

The closest the Jews ever have gotten in modern times is try to observe the Hakhel, is from the western wall.

 

[jgr]

The transgression of desolation by the little horn is found only in Daniel 8.

And the following verse in Daniel 8, indicates that Daniel, nor anyone else, really understood the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation at the time of the end.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

In no instance does the description of a vision precede the announcement of the vision.

 

[Douggg]

In no instance does the description of a vision precede the announcement of the vision.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9.

In Daniel 9:23, Gabriel was about to give Daniel more information about the vision he had in Daniel 8 at the end of Belshazzar's reign concerning the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Then later, in the first year of Darius's reign, in response to Daniel's praying, God sent, commanded, Gabriel to go to him, and show him, tell him about the 70 weeks determined on his people and Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

______________________________________________

In Matthew 24, after Jesus had spoke about the abomination of desolation, and the great tribulation, and his return in power and glory - prophecy.

Jesus gave the parable of the fig tree, of the generation that will not pass away without all of those things in the prophecy being fulfilled.

Which reflecting back to Daniel 9:24... and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

The 70th week, which the stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation by the little horn will take place.

 

[jgr]

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Re-read post 175.

It's "not so complicated".

Every one of your futurist brethren agrees.

 

[Douggg]

Re-read post 175.

It's "not so complicated".

Every one of your futurist brethren agrees.

You don't realize that the information in those chapters is cumulative for the end time picture and timeline ?

For some reason, you can't figure out which chapters Gabriel appeared to Daniel. What chapters do you think those are?

Here, I will make it easy for you...

GABRIEL IN THE BIBLE

 

[jgr]

You don't realize that the information in those chapters is cumulative for the end time picture and timeline ?

For some reason, you can't figure out which chapters Gabriel appeared to Daniel. What chapters do you think those are?

Here, I will make it easy for you...

GABRIEL IN THE BIBLE

He appears in chapter 9.

Exactly what I've been saying.

 

[Douggg]

He appears in chapter 9.

Exactly what I've been saying.

Just in chapter 9 ?

 

[jgr]

Just in chapter 9 ?

Chapter 9 is where Daniel's vision of the 70 weeks is recorded.

 

[Douggg]

Chapter 9 is where Daniel's vision of the 70 weeks is recorded.

Daniel did not have a vision of anything in Daniel 9. Daniel was praying. Gabriel came, touched him. And Daniel was told verbally about the 70 weeks.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

__________________________________________

The vision Daniel had was back in Daniel 8, in the third (and last) year of king Belshazzer's reign.

The prayer of Daniel in Daniel 9 was later, in first year of Darius the Mede's reign, when Gabriel was sent to inform Daniel about the 70 weeks.

Which the 70 weeks included when that vision he had previously in Daniel 8 would be fulfilled - which that vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation is time of the end - stated by Gabriel.

And is in Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

_________________________________________________

The prince who shall come will be the little horn person from Daniel 8. He will be anointed the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name. And he will accomplish the Hakhel reading of the law from the temple mount, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant to begin the 7 years.

 

[mkgal1]

Moses was the leader of Israel at the time, and he was the first to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by reading the law to the gathering of the people. Later, once Israel demanded a king like the surrounding nations, the king became the leader like Moses was. And the responsibility was placed on him. The king was also required to keep a copy of the Torah close at hand.

In the end times, the little horn person after Gog/Magog will come from north and west of Israel with a strong army into the middle east.

The Jews will think he is their long awaited King of Israel/messiah, and the false prophet will anoint him the King of Israel - which he will read the law to the nation of Israel broadcast from the temple mount. That is what is going to start the 7 years.

​

That doesn't address my question. I'd asked:

"Where do you find "by the king of Israel" in the biblical text as cited here?"

......or any other Biblical support for what you're asserting would be fine with me.
​

What's interesting is that God separated the priestly line (the Levites) from the line of the promised king (Judah).....but Jesus fulfills both roles.

​

BTW, Moses didn't "confirm the covenant". It's God who confirms His covenants.

 

[mkgal1]

The prince who shall come will be the little horn person from Daniel 8. He will be anointed the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name. And he will accomplish the Hakhel reading of the law from the temple mount, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant to begin the 7 years.

What this statement does is it takes Jesus the Messiah's anointing that was prophesied through the timeline given to Daniel through Gabriel in chapter 9.......and attributes that anointing to some fabricated character. It's a pureed version of the biblical text.

 

[jgr]

Daniel did not have a vision of anything in Daniel 9.

Daniel 9
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel had a vision of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9.

The vision was announced in Daniel 9:23.

The content of the vision followed in Daniel 9:24-27.

The same pattern as for every other vision of Daniel recorded in the book of Daniel -- announcement followed by content.

Agreed by every recognized student of the Word on the planet, past and present, other than yourself.

 

[mkgal1]

The prince who shall come will be the little horn person from Daniel 8. He will be anointed the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name. And he will accomplish the Hakhel reading of the law from the temple mount, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant to begin the 7 years.

Here is a commentary on Daniel. Daniel 8 is agreed by the historical Church to have been fulfilled through the ancient Greek empire from the fourth to second century B.C.

Quoting R.C. Sproul (I disagree with Sproul on the identity of the 4th kingdom....but that's another discussion):
Because the text mentions four beasts, we will not go far astray if we consider it in relation to the vision of the statue with four distinct components that precedes it (2:31–45). It seems best to view the four successive beasts in Daniel 7:1–12 as corresponding to the same successive four empires imaged in the vision of the statue—Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome. It should be noted that the four beasts do not have an exact correspondence in the animal kingdom; all of them except for the bear are perversions, mutated forms of what the Lord originally created. The sense we are to get is that they embody evil in all its chaotic fury. They inflict harm upon God’s people even if they are relatively kind slavemasters because they rule over the Jews, who are supposed to rule over the world. Beast number four is particularly fierce and proud, with a horn that speaks “great things” (vv. 8, 11–12).

As terrible as these beasts are, they are no match for the “Ancient of Days” who sits in judgment over them (vv. 9–10). The rise and fall of these empires indicate that no evil power will last forever but that each one rules for its appointed time before being cast down. The appearance of the Ancient of Days, however, shows that this succession of kingdoms cannot end until God has His final say in the matter. "New Hope for God's People | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org" New Hope for God's People​