Not sinning does not mean anything; not equivalent to holiness or godliness

[hmw]

I'm not getting a reply to my question about sinning after being saved.

The only way I can see the perfect sinless concept to work is for those who are at their death bed. They have the best chance to not sin before death.

If one is not saved, they still have the Jesus card. So to reverse the idea of Jesus creates a license to sin for the saved, I introduce, with the sinless perfection concept, the unsaved are the ones who are free to sin all they want, after all they still have the Jesus get out of hell free card.

The saved now live every day under the bondage of the law, totally the opposite of which Jesus came to do.

I suppose I'm still trying to figure this all out.

I also have noted how Kemosabe has avoided answering your question.

I suspect, from what I understand of the doctrine he offers here, that he avoids your question because his answer would reveal that he believes Christians remain every day under the bondage of the law facing condemnation/death for even just one transgression.

 

[hmw]

Why would we need to finish the race if the race is already decided?

The race is decided on who continues to believe in Jesus.
It's not based on works of the law.

1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confess Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Kemosabe]

hmw: Note 1Cor 5:9-11 regarding how Christians should deal with those fornicating with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness.

And we look at the scripture and see it serves as an example of your prolixity to rabidly convolute God's Word to facilitate lasciviousness by adding your perverted twist, "with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness."

The scripture proves the imbecility of your little doctrine.

Paul states any of these, "fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner" are to be put out.

Your doctrine says Christians can't sin, and Paul says throw the wicked sinners out.
You try to twist your way past these chargeable sins by saying they're 'spiritual'.

But Jesus defines fornication as a chargeable sex sin; "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery."

So, the scripture you supply exterminates your pathetic little doctrine by showing that Christians are chargeable with sin.

 

[hmw]

And we look at the scripture and see it serves as an example of your prolixity to rabidly convolute God's Word to facilitate lasciviousness by adding your perverted twist, "with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness."

The scripture proves the imbecility of your little doctrine.

Paul states any of these, "fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner" are to be put out.

Your doctrine says Christians can't sin, and Paul says throw the wicked sinners out.
You try to twist your way past these chargeable sins by saying they're 'spiritual'.

But Jesus defines fornication as a chargeable sex sin; "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery."

So, the scripture you supply exterminates your pathetic little doctrine by showing that Christians are chargeable with sin.

Scripture is spiritually discerned as 1Cor 2:14 shows.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Consider the spiritually drunk fornicators spoken of in Rev 17:1,2.
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

Where is the physical act that you see here?

Instead we see that the doctrine you follow seeks to charge sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness against Christians (just as Satan the accuser wants to do, Rev 12:9-11) who have been justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

The doctrine you follow makes it's followers drunk with the wine of fornication with the great harlot.

 

[Striker427]

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
[FONT=&quot]It is hard to believe that if you keep on willfully sinning that you can nullify the sacrifice of Christ. Do not forget your first love and repent.[/FONT]

 

[Kemosabe]

hmw: fornicating with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness.

The word "fornication" appears five times in the Old Testament.

It comes as no surprise that it always means just the opposite of the way you use it in your perverse little doctrine which says Jesus died so that Christians can sin.

In the entire Bible the word "fornication" is only used two ways:
- sex act
- turning away from God's law

You try to twist the Word of God by adding your own words, "fornicating with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness" to the scriptures to open a gate to lasciviousness.

You try to change God's use of " fornication" to mean just the opposite; "turning to God's law."

Not only is your twisted little doctrine not in the Bible, it's the direct opposite if the entire Bible.

"Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

 

[hmw]

The word "fornication" appears five times in the Old Testament.

It comes as no surprise that it always means just the opposite of the way you use it in your perverse little doctrine which says Jesus died so that Christians can sin.

In the entire Bible the word "fornication" is only used two ways:
- sex act
- turning away from God's law

You try to twist the Word of God by adding your own words, "fornicating with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness" to the scriptures to open a gate to lasciviousness.

You try to change God's use of " fornication" to mean just the opposite; "turning to God's law."

Actually Hagar is symbollic of the old covenant of righteousness by works of the law, as Gal 4:25 describes.

And scripture gives many warnings against turning back to the law for righteousness by works.

Your argument fails as it has no scripture to support it.

Can you describe what Rev 17:1,2 means?
Rev 17:1,2.
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

Who is the great harlot?
What are the waters she sits upon?
How did the kings of the earth commit fornication with this one harlot?
How can you get drunk with fornication?
How do you make wine from fornication?

As you are convinced fornication is only physical then can you please explain the above.

 

[Messy]

And we look at the scripture and see it serves as an example of your prolixity to rabidly convolute God's Word to facilitate lasciviousness by adding your perverted twist, "with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness."

The scripture proves the imbecility of your little doctrine.

Paul states any of these, "fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner" are to be put out.

Your doctrine says Christians can't sin, and Paul says throw the wicked sinners out.
You try to twist your way past these chargeable sins by saying they're 'spiritual'.

But Jesus defines fornication as a chargeable sex sin; "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery."

So, the scripture you supply exterminates your pathetic little doctrine by showing that Christians are chargeable with sin.

Christians aren't chargeable with sin. They can do what they wish, once saved always saved, even if you kill the whole neighbourhood. That's why I don't go evangelizing to atheists who once were born again believers anymore. They were saved, so no matter what they believe ( doing bad deeds can't get you out of the Kingdom, it's all grace), they are in the Kingdom and saved.








[ sarcasm]

 

[Kemosabe]

hmw: Actually I said we're set free from the law, which includes the 10 commandments. hmw: Hence we cannot be charged with the sin

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "

You're trying to change the scripture to " or of sin unto righteousness? "

"for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. "

You're trying to change the scripture to " even so now yield your members servants to sin unto holiness. "

 

[Messy]

We're not set free from the law, yes, from the law of sin and death, but we have the law of the Spirit written in our hearts: Love the Lord your God.. and your neighbour as yourself.
Jesus fulfilled the law. He wants to make us holy in spirit, soul and body, the One New Man, so we will do the same works as He did.

 

[Kemosabe]

hmw: Rev 17:1,2.

I just did, but I'll do it again.

In the entire Bible the word "fornication" is only used two ways:
- sex act
- turning away from God's law

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

It means going against God's commandments, and trying to deceive others to turn away from God's commandments.

Any doctrine that says 'Jesus died so that we can sin' would fall under the definition of "spiritual fornication."

You doctrine isn't new.

We can see from the writings of Peter that some were trying to twist Paul's writings to justify sinning.

"they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Jesus said "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Your doctrine is the opposite, it's OK for Christians to sin; trying to turn "the grace of our God into lasciviousness."

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

And Jude goes on to warn that God destroyed the homosexuals of Sodom and Gomorrha for their wicked lasciviousness.

"and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

"Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."

"Speak evil of dignities" brings to mind your constant mocking of Christians who believe Jesus's words, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

This is a commandment from Jesus, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

We have to fulfill this commandment to reap the reward, "see God."

You can't be walking in sin and be "pure in heart."

You mockingly call those striving to be "pure in heart" (keeping Jesus's commandments) ; "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

 

[bottomofsandal]

We're not set free from the law, yes, from the law of sin and death, but we have the law of the Spirit written in our hearts: Love the Lord your God.. and your neighbour as yourself.
Jesus fulfilled the law. He wants to make us holy in spirit, soul and body, the One New Man, so we will do the same works as He did.

You say (as The Bible says) we are free from The Law. Does that include the consequences of The Law ? The wages of sin is death. Our sin is dealt with at the cross. We now have the gift of everlasting life.


What has The Son set us free from ?

Are we free FROM or free TO ?


John 8:32

New King James Version (NKJV)

32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

 

[bottomofsandal]

Christians aren't chargeable with sin. They can do what they wish, once saved always saved, even if you kill the whole neighbourhood. That's why I don't go evangelizing to atheists who once were born again believers anymore. They were saved, so no matter what they believe ( doing bad deeds can't get you out of the Kingdom, it's all grace), they are in the Kingdom and saved.
[ sarcasm]

Sounds like easy believe-ism.

Were these folks saved to begin with ? Not my place to judge.

John speaks of those who left because they never were one of us.

 

[RDKirk]

Sounds like easy believe-ism.

Were these folks saved to begin with ? Not my place to judge.

John speaks of those who left because they never were one of us.

Did you miss that [sarcasm] tag?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
[FONT=&quot]It is hard to believe that if you keep on willfully sinning that you can nullify the sacrifice of Christ. Do not forget your first love and repent.[/FONT]

Then we are all hellbound and under condemnation if we sin once.

If sin after salvation is payable by man, then man is condemned again.

The wages of sin is death, therefore 1 sin post-salvation is death !

This pov demands without exception that Heaven will be empty !!!



First, the passages in Hebrews are not conclusive and are subject to interpretation depending who is exegeting the text. Could the passage be like Romans where knowledge is scorned and ridiculed ? Illumination is not salvation. Are we talking about a saved saint or a seeker ? Why is a man trampling Christ underfoot if the man is a true child of God ? Why should a saint expect judgement when Jesus says we have passed from death to life without being judged ? Christ paid for all our sins.


John 5:24

New King James Version (NKJV)

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

[Norah63]

Choices, since the day that we were born there were voices,
that told us right from wrong.
Salvation is a gift of grace, if it is received (that's a choice)
Our life, after our choice (decision) of salvation, is made up of many choices, God will not make them for us.
In His great goodness he allows us to make our choices.
Response-ability for the time we spend here. (after we have made Jesus Christ our Lord and savior)
If we choose not to follow his will, (repentance) then the outcome may not be to our liking. Call it keeping the commandments, law, what ever you choose to call it.
If we choose to obey the Holy Spirit, then blessings will abound.
I have never seen the term 'easy believe-ism' in the bible.
Yet I have seen the osas played out in many a ruined lives. And it is just for that reason, they have put God in complete control in their own way of thinking, and so they live however they want.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Did you miss that [sarcasm] tag?

Sometimes I cannot discern the humor & wittiness from the eye-pokes

 

[Kemosabe]

hmw: fornicating with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness.

Do you not know what "works of the law" means???

This is what "works of the law" means:

"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD."

"And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him."

Do you know of anyone in the whole world actually doing "works of the law"???

"And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:"

It's impossible for anyone to do "works of the law" now, after the destruction of the temple and the eradication of all records.

It's impossible to keep this part of the law, "And the sons of Aaron the priest shall..."

So,it's impossible for anyone to perform "works of the law."

It's impossible for any Jews who may believe in keeping "works of the law" to keep the "works of the law."

The "letter" of the law has been done away with and is forever impossible to keep.

The "righteousness of the law" has not, and will never be, done away.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Jesus came and died so that we could be made righteous, by faith, and keep "the righteousness of the law" by walking "after the Spirit".

 

[Striker427]

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
[FONT=&quot]It is hard to believe that if you keep on willfully sinning that you can nullify the sacrifice of Christ. Do not forget your first love and repent.[/FONT]

​

bottomofsandal
Then we are all hellbound and under condemnation if we sin once.

If sin after salvation is payable by man, then man is condemned again.

The wages of sin is death, therefore 1 sin post-salvation is death !

This pov demands without exception that Heaven will be empty !!!

Well I guess you would need to see that I just showed you scripture and you go and say it isn't true. I have tried to show in the past how the law works but you would need to read my previous posts to see that. And I have tried to show you how the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ works and how the Grace of God works with this mercy. I have also shown you how sin brings about death and how the power of sin is the law and how you are under the law when you sin. Do you think I posted the scripture up above just to provoke you? No I was showing you that you cannot continue to sin as you please. And no you cannot murder your entire neighborhood and still think you have no sin consequence from that action. Again I will say this, The Grace of the Spirit of God is the power given to us to overcome our sinful nature (the Flesh) and the when we sin it brings forth death, but we are given the Spirit of grace to show us when we sin and yes it will be instantly shown to us that we have sinned. We can then go to our Lord Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness and repent of this sin and He is just to forgive us.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

You say you are walking in fellowship with Jesus and yet you still walk in the darkness (sinning) this makes you a liar and you do not practice the truth.

1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

But if we walk in the light as Jesus walked in the light then we will have fellowship with God and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

But if you say you are not sinning and still walking in the darkness then the truth is not in you.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, He (Jesus) is faithful and true to forgive us and cleanses us from the sins we have committed.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

But if you say you have not sinned, then you have nullified the sacrifice, because you do this willfully and his word will not be in you (Jesus).

Do you think you are better than Ananias?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Act 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

Do I say to keep the law by the letter? No I do not. But the law says do not murder, so am I free to murder? No because the law is a tutor to show what sin is. So if I murder this is a sin and I am put back under the law. God uses the law to judge you and we are supposed to use the law to judge ourselves, when we see that we have sinned then we go forward and repent to Jesus and confess this sin, He gives us mercy that puts us back under the power of Grace.

So if you keep on sinning willfully. You nullify the sacrifice of Christ (Mercy) and when this is nullified you are back under the law of death, because you continue to walk in sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

As long as you are striving with God and you prevail you shall receive the blessing, But if you strive against God you shall receive the curse for the sacrifice of Christ is nullified and the curse is reinstated. This is the curse of death which is brought about by sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

So yes if you continue to sin it brings forth death, but do not judge me by your standard of who will make it into the kingdom of God. I will let God judge me by His standard.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

You say you are Gods people then start acting like it. Go and sin no more. You are given the power to overcome it.

 

[Kemosabe]

hmw: fornicating with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness.

Apparently you've decided to appoint yourself the accuser of the brothers and sisters in the body of Christ who are committed to fulfilling the righteousness of the law by walking after the Spirit.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You accuse those, washed in the blood of Jesus, of "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law" for desiring to keep Jesus's commandments.

Your accusations even extend to the Apostle Paul, after he was washed in the blood of Jesus, who went into the temple to "accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them."

Thus, you accuse the Apostle Paul, after he was washed in the blood of Jesus, of "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

Ironically, you twist Paul's writings to become the accuser of Paul.

If that isn't enough, you've made yourself the accuser of Jesus Christ, Himself, for telling the man to "shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded."