"..not shall be left STONE UPON STONE in Thee.." Jerusalem/Temple Discourse

[LittleLambofJesus]

The stones of those buildings stood for about 350 years after the destruction of the Temple. I'm not being dogmatic about this, I'm just showing a possibility.

Muslim's say the wall doesn't belong to Israel and that there's no temple that stood there on the mount. In several places in Daniel where it says, "the DAILY sacrifice shall cease." The word sacrifice ISN"T in the original Hebrew text. It's actually worded "the daily" which I believe implies the daily prayers the Jews do every day at the Western Wall. I can post those verses to explain if you like.

YLT has "continual/perpetual" with "sacrifice" in italics.

H8548 (YLT)
H8548 (tamiyd), occurs 104 times in 103 verses

Dan 8:
11 And unto the prince of the host it exerteth itself, and by it taken away hath been the continual sacrifice, and thrown down the base of his sanctuary.
12 And the host is given up, with the continual sacrifice, through transgression, and it throweth down truth to the earth, and it hath worked, and prospered.
13 'And I hear a certain holy one speaking, and a certain holy one saith to the wonderful numberer who is speaking: Till when is the vision of the continual sacrifice, and of the transgression, an astonishment, to make both sanctuary and host a treading down?
Dan 11:31
And strong ones out of him stand up, and have polluted the sanctuary, the stronghold, and have turned aside the continual sacrifice, and appointed the desolating abomination.
Dan 12:11
and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual sacrifice, and to the giving of a desolating abomination, are days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
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Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 11:31 Showing the use of the Definite Article -
THE Abomination of Desolation
Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 12:11 Showing the Absence of the Definite Article -
AN Abomination of Desolation

 

[jgr]

The stones of those buildings stood for about 350 years after the destruction of the Temple. I'm not being dogmatic about this, I'm just showing a possibility.

Muslim's say the wall doesn't belong to Israel and that there's no temple that stood there on the mount. In several places in Daniel where it says, "the DAILY sacrifice shall cease." The word sacrifice ISN"T in the original Hebrew text. It's actually worded "the daily" which I believe implies the daily prayers the Jews do every day at the Western Wall. I can post those verses to explain if you like.

The issue is whether or not the wall was included in Jesus' prophecy.

The cited Jewish historians say that the wall had no significance at the time that the temple was destroyed. That is consistent with the descriptions, and Jesus' own words, in the gospels.

From the testimony of the historians, and from the testimony in the gospels, the destruction of the temple in 70 AD accurately fulfilled Jesus' prediction.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The issue is whether or not the wall was included in Jesus' prophecy.

The cited Jewish historians say that the wall had no significance at the time that the temple was destroyed. That is consistent with the descriptions, and Jesus' own words, in the gospels.

From the testimony of the historians, and from the testimony in the gospels, the destruction of the temple in 70 AD accurately fulfilled Jesus' prediction.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized/

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[Blade]

It was made of gold... when it burned.. the gold went in to all the stones.. so they made sure to get all that gold.. and no stone was left..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How come GOD didn't spare their Temple?

At least the Jews don't have to worry about a wall being around their city.......

Zec 2:
4 who said to him, “Run, speak to this young man, saying:
‘Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls, because of the multitude of men and livestock in it.
5 ‘For I,’ says the LORD, ‘will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.’ ”

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us......

Notice where the 10th Legion is camped..............

Legio X Fretensis - Wikipedia

By 70, the rebellion in all of Judaea had been crushed, except for Jerusalem and a few fortresses, including Masada.
In that year X Fretensis, in conjunction with V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, and XV Apollinaris, began the siege of Jerusalem, stronghold of the rebellion.
The Xth camped on the Mount of Olives.

During the siege, Legio X gained fame in the effective use of their various war machines.

It was noted that they were able to hurl stones that weighted a talent (about 25 kg) a distance of two furlongs (400 m) or further..............

Revelation 16:21
And great Hail as talent-weight is descending out of the Heaven/Sky upon the Men,
and they blaspheme the God out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous

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Vid best viewed full screen...........

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Nah 3:
3 Horsemen charge with bright sword and glittering spear.
There is a multitude of slain,
A great number of bodies,
Countless corpses—
They stumble over the corpses—
14 Draw your water for the siege!
Fortify your strongholds!
Go into the clay and tread the mortar!
Make strong the brick kiln!

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Live by the stones, die by the stones.........

John 10:33
Answered Him, the Judeans saying,
"About a good work not we are stoning Thee, but about blasphemy, and that Thou, being a man, are making thyself a god".
[Romans 2:23/Reve 16:11,21]

Acts 7:
59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;’
60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, ‘Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;’ and this having said, he fell asleep.

Romans 2:23
Who in law are boasting through the transgression of the Law, the God thou are dishonoring
24 'For the name of the God is being blasphemed in the nations because of ye' according as it has been written.'
[Psalm 74:10]

Reve 16:11
11 And they blaspheme the God of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them, and not they reform out of the works of them
21 and hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven up the men and the men blaspheme the God out of the stripe/blow of the hail, that great is the stripe/blow of her, tremendous. [Isaiah 28:17,18]

Legio X Fretensis - Wikipedia

By 70, the rebellion in all of Judaea had been crushed, except for Jerusalem and a few fortresses, including Masada.
In that year X Fretensis, in conjunction with V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, and XV Apollinaris, began the siege of Jerusalem, stronghold of the rebellion.
The Xth camped on the Mount of Olives.

During the siege, Legio X gained fame in the effective use of their various war machines.

It was noted that they were able to hurl stones that weighted a talent (about 25 kg) a distance of two furlongs (400 m) or further..............

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[parousia70]

Muslim's say the wall doesn't belong to Israel and that there's no temple that stood there on the mount.

They may very well be right.

Recent archeological findings seem to indicate that the Wailing Wall is the remains of the Adjacent Roman Fort Antonia, and not part of the Jewish Temple mount at all, which was indeed thrown down, not one stone upon another, on time, as prophesied.

Coins found under Jerusalem's Western Wall hints that sacred site is even older than Herod | Daily Mail Online

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

Archaeologists just discovered an ancient lost theatre near the Western Wall in Jerusalem

Oh by the way... where exactly, in Matthew 24, did you say Jesus answered the disciple's question about "WHEN" the temple would be destroyed?

I seem to keep missing your response to that query...

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Stones cry out:

Habakkuk 2:11
The stone/s of the wall shall cry-out, and the beams of the woodwork will echo it.

Luke 19:
39 And some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher! rebuke Your disciples.”
40 And answering He said, “I am saying to ye, that if these will be silent, the stones shall be crying-out<2896>.

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages....... [Luke 16:24,26]

Rev 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out<2896>, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth!
For in one hour she is made desolate.’

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[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Double post............

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dr. D Bunker said: ↑
Muslim's say the wall doesn't belong to Israel and that there's no temple that stood there on the mount.

They may very well be right.
Oh by the way... where exactly, in Matthew 24, did you say Jesus answered the disciple's question about "WHEN" the temple would be destroyed?
I seem to keep missing your response to that query...

Inquiring minds want to know.........


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[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't mind putting you in the back seat. Just clarify your replies. You go all over the place quoting scriptures that are irrelevant to the discussion. You quote links and videos and 5-6 verses and hardly explain a thing. Do your own homework! I AIN'T GOT TIME TO LOOK AT ALL THAT. That's what I mean about scrambled replies. You can't stick to one issue at a time and go off into all sorts of stuff. AND, your post aren't CLEAN. They have very little organization sometimes.

Ok.
Let me go real slow here.
Which Temple is Jesus speaking of here?
And where and when is He when He is speaking about it.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on'; neuter of G2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):—temple.
Strong's Number G2411 matches the Greek ἱερόν (hieron),
which occurs 71 times in 67 verses

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him
Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,

Used only in 1 verse outside of the Gospels and Acts:

1Co 9:13
Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the Temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
The Temple


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[LittleLambofJesus]

I think its very clear that Jesus was talking regarding 70AD.

Thanks for posting and voting.

Was Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6 and Luke 19:44 fulfilled in 70ad?

1. YES 13 vote(s) 81.3%
2. NO 0 vote(s) 0.0%
3. I AM NOT SURE 3 vote(s) 18.8%
4. LUKE IS 70AD WHILE MATTHEW AND MARK ARE STILL FUTURE 1 vote(s)6.3%
   
5. I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT 0 vote(s) 0.0%
6. OTHER 0 vote(s) 0.0%

 

[Copperhead]

Recent archeological findings seem to indicate that the Wailing Wall is the remains of the Adjacent Roman Fort Antonia, and not part of the Jewish Temple mount at all, which was indeed thrown down, not one stone upon another, on time, as prophesied.

Ding, Ding, Ding!! We have a winner!

The temple site was most likely in the City of David where the Gehon Spring is located. Downhill from the Antonia Fortress (modern Temple mount area).

Lots of water would be needed for purification and sacrifices at a temple. There is no natural spring at the Antonia Fortress area. But the Gehon Spring in the City of David would provide ample water. And they have located areas where animals would have been secured and prepared for sacrifice. There are troughs in the bedrock that would have facilitated drainage of blood from those sacrifices.

Archeology explorer Bob Cornuke did a very good video on this....

 

[BABerean2]

But the Gehon Spring in the City of David would provide ample water.

Nice post of Bob Cornuke's research.

It is believed that the Gihon Spring was at one time a very rare siphon spring, which originates in an underground cave.
When the cave fills up the spring could act like an Artesian well and pump water uphill for some period of the day.
This would allow it to naturally pump water up into the temple.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Ding, Ding, Ding!! We have a winner!
The temple site was most likely in the City of David where the Gehon Spring is located. Lots of water would be needed for purification and sacrifices at a temple. There is no natural spring at the Antonia Fortress area. But the Gehon Spring in the City of David would provide ample water. And they have located areas where animals would have been secured and prepared for sacrifice. There are troughs in the bedrock that would have facilitated drainage of blood from those sacrifices.

Archeology explorer Bob Cornuke did a very good video on this....

Good video.

Nice post of Bob Cornuke's research.

It is believed that the Gihon Spring was at one time a very rare siphon spring, which originates in an underground cave.
When the cave fills up the spring could act like an Artesian well and pump water uphill for some period of the day.
This would allow it to naturally pump water up into the temple.

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Water isn't much good during a siege if you have no food..........

Jeremiah 19:9
“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies
and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair.” '

Ezekiel 14:21
For thus says Yahweh Elohim:
“How much more it shall be when I send My four severe judgments on Jerusalem—
the sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence—to cut off man and beast from it?[Revelation 6;8]

Matthew 24:7
“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, pestilences<3061>,and earthquakes in various places.
Luke 21:
11 “And great earthquakes and various places famines and pestilences; and besides fearful sights also shall be great signs from heaven.
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:8
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him.
And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with famine, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.


https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

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[LittleLambofJesus]

The issue is whether or not the wall was included in Jesus' prophecy. The cited Jewish historians say that the wall had no significance at the time that the temple was destroyed. That is consistent with the descriptions, and Jesus' own words, in the gospels.From the testimony of the historians, and from the testimony in the gospels, the destruction of the temple in 70 AD accurately fulfilled Jesus' prediction.

I tend to agree. I also believe Revelation 18 is showing that destruction.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye,
not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

Mark 13:2
And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

Luke 21:6
“These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>
==============================
Luke 19 shows the same event but in more detail than Luke 21.

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being compassed <2944> by armies,
then be ye knowing that nigh the desolating<2050> of Her[Revelation 18:19]

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee,
now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,[Revelation 18:8]
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,[Revelation 18:19]
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".
==================================
I have 3 of the chapters of Revelation 17,18 and 19 posted here if any are interested.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,[Luke 19:43]
death and sorrow and famine. And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

19 And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying
"woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated<2049>[Luke 19:44 Luke 21:20]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.................

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins................

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.

Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.
And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished!
This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ;
and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"

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[LittleLambofJesus]

It was made of gold... when it burned.. the gold went in to all the stones.. so they made sure to get all that gold.. and no stone was left..

There was also silver...............which I think also made the fires hotter, and probably looked like lava..........

1Ch 29:2
“Now for the house of my God I have prepared with all my might: gold for things to be made of gold, silver for things of silver, bronze for things of bronze, iron for things of iron, wood for things of wood, onyx stones, stones to be set, glistening stones of various colors, all kinds of precious stones, and marble slabs in abundance. [Revelation 18:10-12]
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Matthew23:37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! 38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>

Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>,
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Rev 18: 10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying "Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City! That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee. 11 And the Merchants of the earth are lamenting and mourning over Her, that their cargo no one is buying anymore.
12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl
and fine linen and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble 13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
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The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins;
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The Treasures of the Temple

The total wealth of the Second Temple was always small compared to the greatness of the First Temple though there were many changes made during the 400 years following the closing of the canon of the Old Testament. The Roman ruler Herod decided to completely rebuild and enlarge the Second Temple beginning in his 18th year of reign (c20 BC).
Herod employed 10,000 workmen and 1,000 wagons. The size of the temple area was increased from 17 to 34 acres by excavations in the north and by the building of great retaining walls rising 450 ft from the Kidron Valley in the southeast. Within this area, now measuring 351 yards on the north side, 512 on the east, 536 on the west, and 309 on the south, rose the temple with its Corinthian columns of bronze, its different courts and gates and gleaming, spacious cloisters. The buildings and walls we built were extensive and massive. ]
It was in this enlarged Second Temple built by Herod that Jesus was dedicated, and where he later taught and cast out the money-changers on two separate occasions.

John 2:20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

The second temple treasury did benefit from a great influx of gold and silver from all lands contributed by worshipers. Cicero wrote of great influxes of gold to Jerusalem during his lifetime. Gifts other than gold or silver coins were sold and their value given to the treasury. Another large source of revenue was profit made from the sale of the meat offerings which were prepared by the Levites and sold every day to the offerers. By far the largest sum was probably derived from the half-shekel of temple tribute which was required of every male Israelite of age, including proselytes and slaves. The total sum of gold and silver contributed annually at the time of Jesus has been estimated to have been of the order of $500,000 per year. A large fraction of this wealth no doubt accumulated year after year over the lifetime of the second temple, (515 B. C. to 70 A. D.). There were numerous temple expenses but the evidence suggests that the bulk of the income was stored up year after year.

Thus, the Roman plunder could well have been worth tens of millions of dollars. The pillaging of the temple, its total destruction and the burning of Jerusalem with terrible suffering and loss of life occurred in 70 AD under the Roman General Titus (Josephus, Wars of the Jews). Tradition has it that the intense flames of the temple fire melted the gold and silver of the temple so that it ran between the cracks of the rocks. Roman soldiers then totally dismantled the temple stone by stone to extract the gold, (see Matthew 24:1-2). No one seems to know with certainty if any of the vessels or sacred objects from Herod's temple were hidden in subterranean passageways during the long siege of Titus. Most everything of value was most likely carried off to Rome................