Not my usual thread.....

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I wrote a rant at you, SA, but then I decided it wasn't worth it. Some of us students paid for our own education and got bank loans. Some of us aren't entitled little snots who want the best of everything. I shop in thrift stores, my computer was donated to me through the university for disadvantaged students, and I have the cheapest phone plan available, though I cannot telephone anyone unless I use a pay phone (mainly text-only plan). I will have a hell of a lot of money to pay back, and the bank gets to set my monthly repayment fee - I don't. So if I don't get called on McDonald's or Tim Horton's jobs, I'm not going to cry - I'm overqualified anyway, and I have more money to pay than working minimum wage would allow. But don't for one minute think that I am ~too entitled~ to suck it up and work. I'm not - but it is also out of my hands whether I get callbacks or not. All I can do is polish and polish my resume and hope that someday, someone will finally call.

Well, I can be insensitive at times and so deserve a rant, but I thought I was careful in whom I was addressing.

I grew up lower middle class and worked my way through college. Afterwards, I accepted a job that paid enough to survive off of while I worked my way up and went for graduate education. I did not demand a huge salary. I sought whatever I could get to help me in my career and I picked a degree that I could work up through.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Just curious. I would assume you are gainfully employed in a decent paying job, since you seem so harsh regarding those that are struggling in this corrupt economy.

I don't know where I was harsh with anyone that is struggling in this economy. I took issue with the middle class and the housing bubble THEY created which was the downfall of the economy. I took issue with the recent college grads that were too good to seek any employment below their education level or expected income. That was it.

But maybe you are right, maybe I need to be more thoughtful with how I express myself. As it seems and God willing, I will be comfortable and gainfully employed for the rest of my life. I am in a position that puts me out of touch with most people and make me immune to the economy.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Third world? It is the first world companies that build the factories in the third world, so that they can exploit the poor. See companies are always looking how to contain labor costs. See in the third world, companies don't have to pay for health care, dental, vacation time, sick time or even much salary. They force the workers to work long long hours for little pay and no benefits. Nike, Sony and every other corporation in the US and Japan manufacture in China and other countries that allow this exploitation.

Who buys those products? Who goes without a second thought and buys electronics from China? Who gets their clothes from the Caribbean? Who stopped shopping on main street and went to Walmart? Who buys the shoes made in Asia?

The middle class love to complain about the factories closing but did not have an issue with buying foreign products over the last forty years that destroyed someone else's factory. When it closed, they blamed the 'greedy corporations'. It turns out that they were the greedy ones that killed their own country to save two bucks on a shirt or plate set.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I don't know where I was harsh with anyone that is struggling in this economy. I took issue with the middle class and the housing bubble THEY created which was the downfall of the economy. I took issue with the recent college grads that were too good to seek any employment below their education level or expected income. That was it.

But maybe you are right, maybe I need to be more thoughtful with how I express myself. As it seems and God willing, I will be comfortable and gainfully employed for the rest of my life. I am in a position that puts me out of touch with most people and make me immune to the economy.

I visit a forum of young college graduates in Accounting. Many from the big schools are struggling to find any job. There are not a lot of jobs out there even for entry level.

I am glad you are comfortable. I begrudge no one. My point is that there are over 14 million Americans without work. There are not enough jobs to go around. Rents in the Boston area for a 1 bedroom small apartment is $1000.00 up. Food prices are going through the roof. Working for McDonalds or a convenience store is not going to make ends meet. I need a decent and living wage. If the economy dictates rents are X and if I earn Y then I will wind up homeless. There are only so many hours in a day. If one works for minimum wage, then even 80 hours a week won't cut it.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I visit a forum of young college graduates in Accounting. Many from the big schools are struggling to find any job. There are not a lot of jobs out there even for entry level.

I am glad you are comfortable. I begrudge no one. My point is that there are over 14 million Americans without work. There are not enough jobs to go around. Rents in the Boston area for a 1 bedroom small apartment is $1000.00 up. Food prices are going through the roof. Working for McDonalds or a convenience store is not going to make ends meet. I need a decent and living wage. If the economy dictates rents are X and if I earn Y then I will wind up homeless. There are only so many hours in a day. If one works for minimum wage, then even 80 hours a week won't cut it.

I'll be blunt. People need to leave Boston and most of the rust belt, west coast, and blue states. Certain states are not inviting to employers and there are many places with good jobs. Young people need to do what I did after college and move to where there are opportunities. It turns out that liberalism is a massive failure.

There are still many illegal immigrants in this country who can support a family without any social services, benefits or a steady check.

 

[jonathan3880]

Nice one. I really found it very beneficial for me. Keep it up.

 

[benedictaoo]

In most countries people have large houses but they also live side by side with another house. Only the very wealthy have yards and kids play in the many public parks in their area.

But we do not want that. We want to be different from everyone else and have a giant yard and big cars and a 45 minute drive to work and then we want to blame the wealthy for their greed. It's absurd.

Its not "our" fault... the banks and cooperations run this country and they run our politicians too, no matter who he is. they work for them, not us. They let them charge high rates and fees and give them our tax money to bail them out while we don't get a bail out. We just get the bill.

thats who's fault all this is.

This is not about our greed and wanting more then what we should.

I never did get the argument that we should be living like a third world country anyway.

The banks, via the federal government are destroying us and thats just the way it is.

Just this Friday while I'm out doing my errands. I paid 3 separate and different fees... for what? Its unnecessary and thats what's greed pal.

I had to pay 1% to cash a check at the bank the check was written off of. I had to pay $2 at my bank to get a temporay check (back in the day they were free) and to pay my ATT bill over the phone, it was a $5 fee. that 9 $... that could have paid for food.

Thats a very small example of the greed of the rich.

 

[Joshua G.]

I just want to say the following to clarify my position:

1) I am not against Occupy. I think people should be angry at what has been happening here. I think it is fine to express this anger physically peacefully in protest.

2) Like any protest, I am convinced from what I have seen that there are some who are there just to feel important and "part of something". From going to college I know for a fact that some of the most politically involved are actually moreso self-involved. I have seen this with the whole moveon.org thing during my tenure in college. But not all or even most.

3) It is people like these who make a protest less serious than it could be. But, in any large movement, they are bound to be there and Occupy can't do anything about this. By the way, from anything I am able to tell by reading Charlie's posts, I have no reason to include him among the self-involved protesters

4) I am not confused or dismayed at WHY Charlie is there. I get it. I have from the first day I heard about it. I still get it and I don't think anyone is stupid for going.

5) I still do not believe substantial talk or action has come out of Occupy and I think that this due to it's fatal flaw.

6) This fatal flaw is that there is no unity in solution at all.

7) This is also its greatest strength because it allows anyone with a bone to pick with Wall Street and DC to join in without feeling they are having to attach themselves to anything else but anger.

8) Charlie: we all care about the poor. I have a father-in-law who is very conservative, a successful business owner (of several businesses), votes republican and yet doesn't like them becuase they are too liberal, watches Fox and is everything you don't like about America. Except that, I can say that he is without question the most generous person I have ever met to people he doesn't even know (this I know mostly through my wife). He volunteers in a tutoring program and is one of the most conscientious people I have ever met. I'm not exaggerating anything here in any way in order to make my point.

My point is NOT A) that this proves anything about any inherent quality about the ability to care amongst ultra conservatives or B) that his political/fiscal view on how the government is run is correct.

My point IS that you cannot consider yourself more caring or to be part of a monopoly on caring for the poor and destitute because you are doing what you feel needs to be done to help these people by aligning with a certain political perspective. Others care just as much or more than you and do different things. Now, you may disagree with their method and political perspective (and there are probably many aspects that I would agree with you on this) but you need to get off of your high horse.

By all means keep protesting! Do what you feel needs to be done. I could be totally wrong on my analysis of Occupy. I don't think it is harmful. I just think that energy could be harnessed to be more productive.

Josh

 

[Fantine]

North Dakota has a 1% unemployment rate. A number of towns are paying high premiums for jobs that are minimum wage in other areas.

A huge oil reserve (I believe it's called the Marcellus Shale) was discovered there--it extends into Manitoba, I think, and perhaps down to South Dakota.

I've never been to North Dakota, but we lived in South Dakota for a few years, and it wasn't as awful as I feared it would be. What it lacked in amenities it made up for with very warm-hearted, neighborly people who had a real sense of community.

What has happened in the 1990's is that the innovators and inventors of the future decided to take jobs where the money was--Wall Street. And what does Wall Street create? It takes viable businesses, buys them, resells them in pieces, lays off tens of thousands of workers. There was so much consolidation in industry that many of the good jobs disappeared. We had one friend who had been a bank AVP. After losing three jobs in three different banks, he finally became a contingency headhunter, deciding that it wasn't worth it to try to go to another bank that would be bought out. The real money, he decided, was to try to help all the unemployed find jobs.

And what happened in the banking industry happened elsewhere.

The economists I trust say what we need is a focus on education and innovation--preparing young people to do more highly skilled technical work, and encouraging companies at the forefront of technology (especially green companies) to set up shop here.

I think, personally, that if we have 10% unemployment the Fair Labor Standards Act should change the standard work week from 40 to 36 hours. Everybody should work 10% less and earn 10% less. (Yeah, that bleeps, but it would put downward pressure on prices...)

When I was in my twenties, futurists would write articles in the newspaper about how in the future everyone would be working 30 hours a week and have more time to spend quality time with their families. They forgot about greed.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

I'm only responding to 8 because it specifically implies a complete falsehood about me.

(Don't feel dissed, I'm just not up to responding to the whole post.)

8) Charlie: we all care about the poor. I have a father-in-law who is very conservative, a successful business owner (of several businesses), votes republican and yet doesn't like them becuase they are too liberal, watches Fox and is everything you don't like about America.

Ok, we have to stop right there. I don't really having anything against fathers-in-laws, conservatives in general, successful business owners or Republicans in general.

Ok, I've got a problem with Fox news because it's essentially a GOP propaganda machine that uses it power to spread disinformation, fear and attempt to control the views of its audience under the guise of a news channel

Except that, I can say that he is without question the most generous person I have ever met to people he doesn't even know (this I know mostly through my wife). He volunteers in a tutoring program and is one of the most conscientious people I have ever met. I'm not exaggerating anything here in any way in order to make my point.

And while a applaud his generosity, its really beside the point.

Because this whole thing (worldwide in its scope) isn't about the poor or even the rich or even philanthropy.

Its about about plutocracy. Its about people powerful enough to bring down governments just by moving around trillions of dollars in privately held money. (If you're up to it, and I would blame you if you weren't take look at just why Greece, after decades of being able to run its society suddenly couldn't sell its bonds. You'll have to understand what "selling short" means) It about rigged elections, bought and paid for politicians and the reduction of 100s of millions of people to serfdom.

400 families control 80% of this PLANET'S wealth. This wasn't done by hard work and sweat. Its was done by rigged tax laws and the consolation of supposedly "free" markets, by collusion and, to be honest, criminal activities.

I, personally, will not subject my children, my as yet to arrive in this world grandchildren and my neighbors and friends to wage slavery and politician powerlessness without a fight.

I'd prefer it be non-violent.

 

[Daniel25]

I agree this has to stop. However, we also have to take responsibility. From my understanding of history, scapegoating never quit works out well.

We live in a way that is not equivalent to other modern countries. When we learn to live within our means, such as more compact cities, more public transportation, recycle and reuse most of our trash and live healthy lifestyles, then we can focus on something else. The "99%" wastes so much but they do nothing about it.

To me, the issue is not the poverty of the students, but how backwards the banking system is in this country. Consider government insured mortgages, where the government gives the banks the money at .5%, who then loans it to the citizen at 3.8%. The bank assumes no risk and fronts no capital.

The students are bums; but the banks need to be skinned. Else in 10 years we'll be bailing them out again.

 

[OuterWater]

The main issue I see with the Occupy movement is that there is no real end-goal that I can see. A lot of angry people, some for justifiable reasons, some not, venting their anger at the rich. But in order to protest something successfully, as I see it, you should have an end goal! Protest BP to make them increase their safety standards. Protest Toys R Us to get them to stop selling Sponge Bob toys...whatever....but have a goal in mind, or else you are just shouting wildly and that doesn't accomplish much.

 

[Joshua G.]

I'm only responding to 8 because it specifically implies a complete falsehood about me.

(Don't feel dissed, I'm just not up to responding to the whole post.)

Ok, we have to stop right there. I don't really having anything against fathers-in-laws, conservatives in general, successful business owners or Republicans in general.

Ok, I've got a problem with Fox news because it's essentially a GOP propaganda machine that uses it power to spread disinformation, fear and attempt to control the views of its audience under the guise of a news channel

And while a applaud his generosity, its really beside the point.

Because this whole thing (worldwide in its scope) isn't about the poor or even the rich or even philanthropy.

Its about about plutocracy. Its about people powerful enough to bring down governments just by moving around trillions of dollars in privately held money. (If you're up to it, and I would blame you if you weren't take look at just why Greece, after decades of being able to run its society suddenly couldn't sell its bonds. You'll have to understand what "selling short" means) It about rigged elections, bought and paid for politicians and the reduction of 100s of millions of people to serfdom.

400 families control 80% of this PLANET'S wealth. This wasn't done by hard work and sweat. Its was done by rigged tax laws and the consolation of supposedly "free" markets, by collusion and, to be honest, criminal activities.

I, personally, will not subject my children, my as yet to arrive in this world grandchildren and my neighbors and friends to wage slavery and politician powerlessness without a fight.

I'd prefer it be non-violent.

Charlie,

My point was simply that many are aware of the issue at hand and don't like it as much as you. However, there method of reaction to the issue doesn't mean they are more or less knowledgeable of the issue than you are. This is what people who are highly political (on any side) tend not to get. That no one really knows "the answer", they only know what they don't like and why they don't like it. But it is always important to offer a solution or two.

Now, that said, I just happened across t his article which does show that Occupy's goal is actually somewhat concrete beyond simply changing the dynamic of dinner-table/forum conversation. I am happy to see concrete action accompany the protests, making the protests meaningful. I happy to see leadership develop among Occupy so it can go somewhere and define itself.

Groups prepare to bring Occupy protests to Congress - CNN.com

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

The main issue I see with the Occupy movement is that there is no real end-goal that I can see. A lot of angry people, some for justifiable reasons, some not, venting their anger at the rich. But in order to protest something successfully, as I see it, you should have an end goal! Protest BP to make them increase their safety standards. Protest Toys R Us to get them to stop selling Sponge Bob toys...whatever....but have a goal in mind, or else you are just shouting wildly and that doesn't accomplish much.

You said that so well! that's what I was trying to say!

See the link in my last post. It seems they are beginning to do just that.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

The main issue I see with the Occupy movement is that there is no real end-goal that I can see. A lot of angry people, some for justifiable reasons, some not, venting their anger at the rich. But in order to protest something successfully, as I see it, you should have an end goal! Protest BP to make them increase their safety standards. Protest Toys R Us to get them to stop selling Sponge Bob toys...whatever....but have a goal in mind, or else you are just shouting wildly and that doesn't accomplish much.

Charlie,

My point was simply that many are aware of the issue at hand and don't like it as much as you. However, there method of reaction to the issue doesn't mean they are more or less knowledgeable of the issue than you are. This is what people who are highly political (on any side) tend not to get. That no one really knows "the answer", they only know what they don't like and why they don't like it. But it is always important to offer a solution or two.

Now, that said, I just happened across t his article which does show that Occupy's goal is actually somewhat concrete beyond simply changing the dynamic of dinner-table/forum conversation. I am happy to see concrete action accompany the protests, making the protests meaningful. I happy to see leadership develop among Occupy so it can go somewhere and define itself.

Groups prepare to bring Occupy protests to Congress - CNN.com

Josh

What you need to understand is that all of this is intended. These college educated young people who so many denigrate are actually college educated young people.

They know that the media controls the message, that the media in corporate owned and the the powerful will use there own goals against them.

They know any leaders will be hounded and discredited, that their ends will be co-oped.

They remain leaderless as a defense to their cause. They diffuse their goals to ensure their survival.

But make no mistake they know what their goals are, and they are as simple and easy to understand as they are difficult implement.

End the oppression of 99% by the 1%.

That's all.

And, trust me on this, even if you don't actually believe me. Come Spring these guys are going to be everywhere. Running them out of their encampments only spread them around.

So you know: Next step, occupy houses that are going to be foreclosed on.

That should be interesting.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

When they begin breaking and entering they can enjoy their new home in prison. Some of them might find themselves facing the barrel of a gun when the break into the wrong homes. And unlike the people in the middle east they are trying to imitate, the trust fund kids won't be willing to risk their lives.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Well, I can be insensitive at times and so deserve a rant, but I thought I was careful in whom I was addressing.

I grew up lower middle class and worked my way through college. Afterwards, I accepted a job that paid enough to survive off of while I worked my way up and went for graduate education. I did not demand a huge salary. I sought whatever I could get to help me in my career and I picked a degree that I could work up through.

That's the route I'm going, and the key is finding a job that pays "enough to survive off". I'm not opposed to working my way up - in fact, that is what I intend to do - but the problem I'm seeing lately as I job-search is that a lot of full-time jobs in the big city are offering $24k-$28k a year, which isn't sufficient at all when you are carrying a huge student debt load even if you live frugally. It's begun to frighten me. I could make it on $30k, I think, since I'm not really a "material girl" (my biggest expenses are my medical prescriptions). But anything less than that wouldn't work.

What I've seen happening is that many companies are cutting jobs, and then offering low-paying jobs to fill the gap. Cutting wages, benefits, etc. I've never had dreams of an amazingly cushy life, as I am a simple person, but my one dream is to be able to make enough money that I can save some every month for my future (retirement, nursing home, etc.). That probably won't happen for awhile, but I'm beginning to fear that it might not happen at all

 

[Joshua G.]

What you need to understand is that all of this is intended. These college educated young people who so many denigrate are actually college educated young people.

They know that the media controls the message, that the media in corporate owned and the the powerful will use there own goals against them.

They know any leaders will be hounded and discredited, that their ends will be co-oped.

They remain leaderless as a defense to their cause. They diffuse their goals to ensure their survival.

But make no mistake they know what their goals are, and they are as simple and easy to understand as they are difficult implement.

End the oppression of 99% by the 1%.

That's all.

And, trust me on this, even if you don't actually believe me. Come Spring these guys are going to be everywhere. Running them out of their encampments only spread them around.

So you know: Next step, occupy houses that are going to be foreclosed on.

That should be interesting.

The people on that film deserved to be denigrated. You overestimate what college-educated means. But it does seem there are some smart cookies in there. I guess I didn't get the secret memo that they have a plan. lol

 

[underheaven]

okay I read the letter and I feel the same way... where I live at, there a casino walking distance from me and a firemen was telling my husband every night for years there has been suicide in the parking lot- last Friday 5 ppl killed themselves just in that location. I guess they gamble what ever they have in desperation and then kill themselves when that don't work.

We were told the local media will not report these suicides because the local politicians who make money off the casinos wants to have ppl believe its good for our community.

there was a preist that was found dead in a canal with Casino chips from there in his pocket years back.

There was a young mother very close to where I live who killed herself in her house and her three kids because her house went into foreclosure the 2nd time and she couldn't' handle it.

We're giving money to the banks and they still are taking ppl's houses. and if they do modify them... with no job, they fall into forcloseure again.

I do not know how they expect ppl to live but I know dang sure the banks taking a loss won't kill any of them.

I think that the States has to be the least Christian of countries,and yet it is always talking about God. I am sorry but I hate all the American chains like Mc donalds,Starbucks,coca cola.They are world wide and they are literally over powering and destroying,what was a more intimate,personal shopping experience,where there were personal links between all the local shops agriculturalists,farmers, fishermen,etc etc.
They tear apart the natural inter human relationships which create communities of people.
They and all like them are disgusting, destructive
and certainly not Loving. Time that the very rich realise that we are nearing the end of a cycle,
and Hell will be waiting for them,unless they treat their fellow humans well. I think that the
cult of celebrity is sickening ,for here it is becoming like yours ,but never was here.
You call them 'stars'.Why ?.For me those are in the Sky. Anyone can be an actor.Why are
these' silly 'people so considered ? It's time for this 'sick' culture to 'die'. I am happy to see
that a new generation of 'les indignes' as we call them are on the streets protesting .
God bless them,they are the Children of God.

 

[BabyChristian22]

Charlie,

This is your usual thread.

It's amazing how the "Occupy" movement is taking people's attention away from Obama's role in the failed economy just in time for his reelection campaign. I wonder how many of the "Occupy" protesters are getting paid out of Obama's reelection campaign (tax payer money) fund for this distraction.