Not chosen without a choice!

[chestertonrules]

Something we finally agree on...



This objection is succinctly refuted by Paul:

Romans 9:17-21
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

I highlighted the statement that is synonymous to the objection you make. Paul clarifies that it is God's divine perrogative to create some to be the recipients of His mercy and some to be the objects of His wrath and you, the creation, have no right to call into question His holiness in doing so or even blame Him for fallen man's wicked actions, which he willingly commits.



Again, who said you didn't have a choice. The question before you is, why does one choose to be wicked while another choose to embrace God?



Not sure which part you are asking about but, I have basically disagreed with most of what you've said so far.

For the record, the opinion of a rational church:


2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51 2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

 

[Reformationist]

For the record, the opinion of a rational church

Did you have anything of value to offer or was your plan to simply be denigrating towards reformed Christians in a reformed sub forum? I only ask because there are plenty of other people out there that actually want to engage in meaningful and edifying discourse with others and I'd just as soon not waste any more time on discussing these issue with someone who seems to want nothing more than foist their views on me in as arrogant a fashion as possible.

Thanks ahead of time for helping me identify which camp you fall in.

 

[edie19]

This thread is in "Ask a Calvinist" - the OP asked a question, those of Calvinist/Reformed tenets may answer that question.

This is not "Debate a Calvinist," - it is inappropriate for nonSR members to be attacking Calvinist/Reformed tenets in this thread

I closed one thread in Ask a Calvinist today - won't hesitate to close another!!

 

[ReformedChapin]

((Please provide scriptural support for "free will" or a "choice" other than going to hell.)))


OK:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Mark 8 34 Then, calling the crowd to join his disciples, he said, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. 35 If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it.

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- Matthew 19:16-17 "'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?'...'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'"

None of those verses prove your point.

 

[chestertonrules]

Did you have anything of value to offer or was your plan to simply be denigrating towards reformed Christians in a reformed sub forum? I only ask because there are plenty of other people out there that actually want to engage in meaningful and edifying discourse with others and I'd just as soon not waste any more time on discussing these issue with someone who seems to want nothing more than foist their views on me in as arrogant a fashion as possible.

Thanks ahead of time for helping me identify which camp you fall in.

You seem to want to debase the discussion.

You have consistently ignored or distorted my points, or posted irrelevant evasions.

I don't mind, given that it only demonstrated your inability to confront the scripture I posted.

Some examples, in case you've forgotten:

<<<Straight from the mouth of the leader of your denomination who, apparently, isn't a man.

For that matter, the fact that I do is what keeps me from falling prey to the heinous views you are espousing.

God, you arrogantly presume that you are meeting the conditions set forth by your God. Good one. That's gonna go over well.

And why do we choose one way or the other? Notice, I said "WHY" not "how" so please, for the sake of expediency, do not respond with the token Roman answer of "FREE WILL!!!"

Wow. "Facts are facts." That is such an indepth and articulate response.

Did you have anything of value to offer or was your plan to simply be denigrating towards reformed Christians in a reformed sub forum?>>>


The facts which you can't refute:


We are created by God.

If he created a totally depraved creature, as you believe, then it is his fault.

I believe God created us with a desire to know him. I believe that he will grant grace if we choose to seek it.

This is what the bible teaches. I'm sure you can find 20 or 30 scriptures to support you case, but who can't?

Read the bible in its entirety.

 

[ReformedChapin]

You seem to want to debase the discussion.

You have consistently ignored or distorted my points, or posted irrelevant evasions.

I don't mind, given that it only demonstrated your inability to confront the scripture I posted.

Some examples, in case you've forgotten:

<<<Straight from the mouth of the leader of your denomination who, apparently, isn't a man.

For that matter, the fact that I do is what keeps me from falling prey to the heinous views you are espousing.

God, you arrogantly presume that you are meeting the conditions set forth by your God. Good one. That's gonna go over well.

And why do we choose one way or the other? Notice, I said "WHY" not "how" so please, for the sake of expediency, do not respond with the token Roman answer of "FREE WILL!!!"

Wow. "Facts are facts." That is such an indepth and articulate response.

Did you have anything of value to offer or was your plan to simply be denigrating towards reformed Christians in a reformed sub forum?>>>


The facts which you can't refute:


We are created by God.

If he created a totally depraved creature, as you believe, then it is his fault.

I believe God created us with a desire to know him. I believe that he will grant grace if we choose to seek it.

This is what the bible teaches. I'm sure you can find 20 or 30 scriptures to support you case, but who can't?

Read the bible in its entirety.

You sure are the king of rhetoric

 

[edie19]

MOD HAT ON
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closed for staff review -

will be deleting debating posts by nonSR members

MOD HAT OFF
​