Not chosen without a choice!

[Reformationist]

You are reading words into the bible that are not there.

By the way, can you elaborate?

I ask because it seems that you're rejecting valid literary concepts which are clearly in use in the Bible. Pray tell, is it all literal and grammatical rules that you oppose or just those that show the unbiblical nature of your views?

 

[BBAS 64]

((Please provide scriptural support for "free will" or a "choice" other than going to hell.)))


OK:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Mark 8 34 Then, calling the crowd to join his disciples, he said, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. 35 If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it.

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- Matthew 19:16-17 "'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?'...'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'"

Good Day,

None of these say may has a free will.....You personal interpretation is lacking

Care to try again?

In Him,

Bill

 

[mlqurgw]

I don't think your understanding of scripture is complete.

Here's the truth:

1 Tim 2

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



God wants all men to choose him.

He gives us the chance to follow him or reject him.

These verses are also very intriquing. We shouldn't be too hasty to judge the salvation of others. We must do our best to do what is right with the revelation we have received.

1 Timothy 4:10

10For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1 Peter 1:17
17 The Father is the One Who judges you by what you do. He does not respect one person more than another. If you call Him Father, be sure you honor Him with love and fear all the days of your life here on earth.

Typical snipit prooftext religion without regard to the immediate context or the context of the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Utter nonsense and man centered BS.

 

[Beoga]

You are reading words into the bible that are not there.

If Paul tells us to strive, then it requires our effort.

If Jesus tells us to forgive others, then this is a task assigned to US.

If we don't bear fruit, is this God's fault?

Just to add a question, you have provided statements and verses that state what men ought to do. Can you provide verses that state that the unregenerate man is able to do what he ought to do?

 

[chestertonrules]

Good Day,

None of these say may has a free will.....You personal interpretation is lacking

Care to try again?

In Him,

Bill

How can God render according to our works if we have no will?

How can we decide to pick up our cross and follow Christ if we have no will?

In fact, we can't even repent unless it is a matter of will.

God did not create Robots.

 

[chestertonrules]

Just to add a question, you have provided statements and verses that state what men ought to do. Can you provide verses that state that the unregenerate man is able to do what he ought to do?

We must strive, and must forgive others if we are to be forgiven.

Ask and you shall receive.

Is asking a matter of will? Can a man who decides to follow Christ ask for Grace?

If there is such a thing as conversion or confession of sins, then there must be will.

 

[chestertonrules]

Typical snipit prooftext religion without regard to the immediate context or the context of the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Utter nonsense and man centered BS.

Feel free to put them in context.

I note with Calvinists that this usually means quoting sources other than the bible.

Let's see the correct context from your perspective.

 

[mlqurgw]

Feel free to put them in context.

I note with Calvinists that this usually means quoting sources other than the bible.

Let's see the correct context from your perspective.

Perhaps later. Right now I have neither the time or inclination to bother with a heritic.

 

[Reformationist]

Just to add a question, you have provided statements and verses that state what men ought to do. Can you provide verses that state that the unregenerate man is able to do what he ought to do?

I already tried introducing the concept of reading the Bible while keeping the literary devices of imperative versus indicative. He wasn't interested. His is the same argument that Erasmus, and Pelagius before him, made. If God commands it, man can do it.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

How can God render according to our works if we have no will?

He denied free will, not will altogether. Man chooses and he chooses freely. It's just that, in his natural state, man's will is enslaved to sin and so he freely chooses to sin, and only sin.

God did not create Robots.

Again, you echo only the sentiments of those who fail to consider what the reformed community actually says. A will that is in bondage to sin is not free. It is still a will but it lacks liberty.

 

[Beoga]

I already tried introducing the concept of reading the Bible while keeping the literary devices of imperative versus indicative. He wasn't interested. His is the same argument that Erasmus, and Pelagius before him, made. If God commands it, man can do it.

God bless

I tried. Got the same type of answer. Oh well.
Take care.

 

[chestertonrules]

I already tried introducing the concept of reading the Bible while keeping the literary devices of imperative versus indicative. He wasn't interested. His is the same argument that Erasmus, and Pelagius before him, made. If God commands it, man can do it.

God bless

You are introducing the ideas of men that contradict the bible.

If you can't accept the very clear teaching of the bible that men will be judged for their actions, then I can't help you.

I will try to provide some clear scriptures to further the point, however. You can mince them up in any way you choose if will ease your conscience.

 

[chestertonrules]

You are introducing the ideas of men that contradict the bible.

If you can't accept the very clear teaching of the bible that men will be judged for their actions, then I can't help you.

I will try to provide some clear scriptures to further the point, however. You can mince them up in any way you choose if will ease your conscience.

Why would Jesus spend so much time instructing us in the good works we should do if we are incapable?

Here's the key:

We have to ASK!

Ask, Seek, Knock

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.



The problem with Calvinist is that they ignore most of the gospels and elevate a few passages of Paul to build an entire religion upon.


more from Matthew

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

and more

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."



Jesus wants us to hear his words, ask for help, and DO THE RIGHT THING.

This is within our grasp because God wants us all to be saved.

He condemns no one. We have the choice to accept his gifts or reject them.

 

[Reformationist]

You are introducing the ideas of men that contradict the bible.

I know, I know. You're enlightening us with the ideas of God, right? Straight from the mouth of the leader of your denomination who, apparently, isn't a man.

If you can't accept the very clear teaching of the bible that men will be judged for their actions, then I can't help you.

I am not aware that I was seeking your help and, for the record, I do accept the very clear teaching of the Bible. For that matter, the fact that I do is what keeps me from falling prey to the heinous views you are espousing.

I will try to provide some clear scriptures to further the point, however. You can mince them up in any way you choose if will ease your conscience.

I needn't "mince" anything, at least not until I prepare dinner tonight. Anyway, I am sure you'll provide me with a list of verses which you errantly feel supports your position and then further skew the discussion by putting your spin on them. How that is supposed to help anyone is beyond me but, hey, what do I know? I'm a guy who introduces the ideas of men in an effort to subvert the clear teachings of the Bible, right?

 

[Reformationist]

Why would Jesus spend so much time instructing us in the good works we should do if we are incapable?

What's He supposed to instruct us to do, bad works? What a nonsensical statement. You read verses which tell us what to do and, instead of falling to your knees in recognition of your helplessness and lack of natural inclination to embrace God, you arrogantly presume that you are meeting the conditions set forth by your God. Good one. That's gonna go over well.

He condemns no one.

What is condemnation but the just judgement of God upon the wicked? If God doesn't condemn anyone, who does?

We have the choice to accept his gifts or reject them.

And why do we choose one way or the other? Notice, I said "WHY" not "how" so please, for the sake of expediency, do not respond with the token Roman answer of "FREE WILL!!!"

 

[chestertonrules]

What's He supposed to instruct us to do, bad works? What a nonsensical statement. You read verses which tell us what to do and, instead of falling to your knees in recognition of your helplessness and lack of natural inclination to embrace God, you arrogantly presume that you are meeting the conditions set forth by your God. Good one. That's gonna go over well.



What is condemnation but the just judgement of God upon the wicked? If God doesn't condemn anyone, who does?



And why do we choose one way or the other? Notice, I said "WHY" not "how" so please, for the sake of expediency, do not respond with the token Roman answer of "FREE WILL!!!"

It's nonsensical when viewed from a Calvinist perspective.

To a Calvinist, men are incapable of doing good or seeking God's grace.

All good comes from God, of course, but he created us in his image.

If God wants us all to be saved, then apparently we either are all saved, OR, our actions can prevent our salvation.

 

[chestertonrules]

It's nonsensical when viewed from a Calvinist perspective.

To a Calvinist, men are incapable of doing good or seeking God's grace.

All good comes from God, of course, but he created us in his image.

If God wants us all to be saved, then apparently we either are all saved, OR, our actions can prevent our salvation.

God created us.

If we are wicked and have no chance of doing good, then it is his fault.

However, if he gives us a choice and we choose to be wicked, then it is our fault.


Do you disagree?

 

[Reformationist]

It's nonsensical when viewed from a Calvinist perspective.

Oh, well, I daresay that Calvinists are not the only ones that would find your views nonsensical but I do appreciate the fact that you identify yourself as someone who paints with an unnecessarily broad brush.

To a Calvinist, men are incapable of doing good or seeking God's grace.

No. To a Calvinist, or one who acknowledges man's inherent depravity, unregenerate man is incapable of doing good or seeking God. Oh, and by the way, your own denomination acknowledges fallen man's natural proclivity to rebel.

All good comes from God, of course, but he created us in his image.

And then that image was radically corrupted in the Fall. You remember there was a Fall, right?

If God wants us all to be saved, then apparently we either are all saved, OR, our actions can prevent our salvation.

Not sure what your point is as God has no intent to save all people without exception.

 

[Reformationist]

God created us.

Something we finally agree on...

If we are wicked and have no chance of doing good, then it is his fault.

This objection is succinctly refuted by Paul:

Romans 9:17-21
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

I highlighted the statement that is synonymous to the objection you make. Paul clarifies that it is God's divine perrogative to create some to be the recipients of His mercy and some to be the objects of His wrath and you, the creation, have no right to call into question His holiness in doing so or even blame Him for fallen man's wicked actions, which he willingly commits.

However, if he gives us a choice and we choose to be wicked, then it is our fault.

Again, who said you didn't have a choice. The question before you is, why does one choose to be wicked while another choose to embrace God?

Do you disagree?

Not sure which part you are asking about but, I have basically disagreed with most of what you've said so far.

 

[Reformationist]

Wow. "Facts are facts." That is such an indepth and articulate response. I don't know how I will ever respond to such irrefutable logic....

Oh yeah I do...see ya, take care, and buh bye...