Not chosen without a choice!

[unpardoned1]

How can God hold us accountable for a choice if we can't even be free to choose?

Its like me telling my son to clean his room or he will be grounded for a month and then I lock the door so he can't clean his room. Then ground him for a month. That would be abusive right? Maybe boardering on psychotic and cruel?

I dealt with a cruel father for years, now a cruel mean God that chooses to hold some back but yet still holds them accountable for thier decision.

Its like Pharoah. Poor pharoah couldn't even make a real choice, his heart was hardoned!

I am 30yo now! I grew up in a Evangelical free church and always felt I agreed with what they taught. I still go there in between being mad at God and dealing with my own problems. They also believe in predestination, but they say you still have a choice. That just adds one more psychotic demension to this whole thing!

So lately now I am starting to question weather or not God exists, if He does, if He is the God of the Bible. I have even wondered if the Bible is even real. Hmmm, I always did, now I'm doubting. Perhaps I'm "unchosen" now?

This doctrine totally turns me off from God and other parts of the Bible don't make sense to me. They sound like a fairy tale. Burning talking bushes, Adam and Eve, assentions, floods, chariots of fire. None of this stuff happens now! Where is God? There is also NO record of anything Biblical, no record of Jesus or anything! Its like the Bible is seperate from "real documented history".

Any thoughts!?

 

[desmalia]

I too was raised in very evangelical churches, and it left me wanting to find some real meat - something concrete and true instead of trendy catch phrases, emotionalism and circular thinking. It's good to come out of that, to question and to search. If your desire is to truly glorify God, that is something He placed in you. It is His calling, not something that we ever come to on our own.

If you are really searching for some answers on the election issue, I recommend you pick up a copy of R.C. Sproul's "Chosen by God". It will clarify a lot of things for you. And it's a very strait-forward, easy to read book.

As for seeking answers about the existance of God, I recommend pretty much any book by Ravi Zacharias. C.S. Lewis is another one that comes to mind.

Hope that helps.

 

[unpardoned1]

This whole election thing makes me angry, though.

 

[unpardoned1]

Maybe I'll check the books out.

 

[desmalia]

Maybe I'll check the books out.

I hope you will. It's so easy to be angry at something we don't understand, especially if it rocks our faith. The best way to work through it is to fully investigate. It may take some time to work through, but that's OK. I used to be angry at God too. But you know, He never gave up on me. Instead, He used it to discipline and mature me in the faith. I'm eternally grateful for that.
I can now honestly say "Not my will but Thine be done" with joy in my heart and total trust in Him.

 

[bradfordl]

This whole election thing makes me angry, though.

There's a reason for that. But Paul anticipated your anger and objections and asked:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Much of what God ordains is inscrutible to us mere specks of dust. Why should that be a surprise? But anger and frustration with how God's sovereign will plays out generally arise from our desire to have things go the way we think they should rather than the way He does. A little strange isn't it, that a speck of dust should dictate to it's immeasurable Maker how things ought to be, and then get all bent out of shape when He disagrees? That's the incredible arrogance that human flesh is capable of.

 

[DeaconDean]

To try and understand the mind of God, the reasons why He does this, or that, is beyond our comprehension.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." -Isa. 55:8-9 (KJV)

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?" -1 Cor. 2:16 (KJV)

" O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?" -Rom. 11:33-34 (KJV)

The reason why God does anything is not given for us to know.

Perhaps the Lord God has some reason hidden to you, but known only to God, that things are the way they are.

Perhaps God chose not to elect a person or persons, just so He could test the witnessing of another or the seriousness of their walk?

We just don't know, and we won't know till we are made like him.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." -1 Cor. 13:12 (KJV)

The best advice I can give is to simply take it as it is. The Bible teaches election, there is no disputing that. And the reasons for election are known only to God, the Bible teaches that.

The best that we can do is to just accept it, and come to the conclusion that God has everything in control, it is done that way according to His divine plan, and for whatever reasons God wanted it that way, it will work itself out in the end.

And perhaps, you really should set some time aside and try to read and study the doctrine of election.

Here is a link to a bunch of articles on just this subject.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/..._links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=election

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ReformedChapin]

If humans were left on their own to choose, they would all rebel against God. But by his grace we are saved against our own sinful nature and we are given the holy spirit to regenerate us.

 

[BBAS 64]

This whole election thing makes me angry, though.

Good day, Unpardoned

Why??


In Him,

Bill

 

[cygnusx1]

The most hated Doctrine in the world is the doctrine of HELL.

The most hated doctrine in the Church is the doctrine of Election.(Predestination).


many mistake God's choice for unfairness , they imagine if salvation is based upon Divine Election then it must be unjust ;

"God is fair so election must be unjust" ..........


but God owes no-one anything except judgment , so mercy cannot be unjust.

many hate Divine Election so much that if it were true , they would rather see everyone go to hell than some be saved by Divine Election !

 

[Canuckmom]

Unpardoned, you've had some good answers. I would add that no one that wants to be saved will be refused mercy. God said Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated, but what did Esau do? He didn't want his birthright either! Esau was responsible. Our finite minds can not see how human responsibility and God's sovereignty can be compatable, but God has decreed that they work together. Why should anyone complain that God did not "choose" him when he doesn't want anything to do with God and His salvation. ...the carnal mind is enmity against God.. Rom.8:7

 

[jax5434]

How can God hold us accountable for a choice if we can't even be free to choose?

Its like me telling my son to clean his room or he will be grounded for a month and then I lock the door so he can't clean his room. Then ground him for a month. That would be abusive right? Maybe boardering on psychotic and cruel?

I dealt with a cruel father for years, now a cruel mean God that chooses to hold some back but yet still holds them accountable for thier decision.

Its like Pharoah. Poor pharoah couldn't even make a real choice, his heart was hardoned!

I am 30yo now! I grew up in a Evangelical free church and always felt I agreed with what they taught. I still go there in between being mad at God and dealing with my own problems. They also believe in predestination, but they say you still have a choice. That just adds one more psychotic demension to this whole thing!

So lately now I am starting to question weather or not God exists, if He does, if He is the God of the Bible. I have even wondered if the Bible is even real. Hmmm, I always did, now I'm doubting. Perhaps I'm "unchosen" now?

This doctrine totally turns me off from God and other parts of the Bible don't make sense to me. They sound like a fairy tale. Burning talking bushes, Adam and Eve, assentions, floods, chariots of fire. None of this stuff happens now! Where is God? There is also NO record of anything Biblical, no record of Jesus or anything! Its like the Bible is seperate from "real documented history".

Any thoughts!?

unpardoned 1

there are indeed many non-biblical references to both jesus and the christian faith. More than there are for such "undoubtedly" historical figures as plato.socrates or alexander the great. our faith is real documentd history.

As to the rest of your post, out of respect for this forum, i will not respond beyond saying that there is more than one view of what christ taught. Do not let anger at a doctrine translate into anger at god

jax

 

[BigNorsk]

unpardoned,

The doctrine of election is a comfort, it is a part of understanding that our salvation ultimately doesn't rely on us for if it did, we would all be lost. The thing is, it's rather dangerous really to dwell too much on trying to discern the hidden things of God. Rather, it is more profitable to submit to his decision as to what to reveal.

He has for instance told us that whosoever believes will be saved.

But people who believe start to worry, what if I am not elect, and so they turn from faith to doubt and it can actually destroy them to the point that they don't believe.

All because they tried to know something they could not know.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Incorrect, God's wishes doesnt concieded with his will. Romans 9 makes that more than clear when he speaks that he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

29 9:16 So then, 30 it does not depend on human desire or exertion,31 but on God who shows mercy. 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh: 32 “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 33 9:18 So then, 34 God 35 has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. 36

Paul makes his position even more clear by showing how any individual presented infront of God would whine about being presented infront of God guilty without having a choice and doing what his will is.

9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?”

Pauls responds to this objection more than clear..

9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being

37 – to talk back to God? 38 Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 39 9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay 40 one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 41 9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects 42 of wrath 43 prepared for destruction? 44 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects 45 of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory

 

[chestertonrules]

You said "incorrect", but you didn't say what was incorrect.

The bible?

Here's what I wrote:

1 Tim 2

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



God wants all men to choose him.

He gives us the chance to follow him or reject him.

These verses are also very intriquing. We shouldn't be too hasty to judge the salvation of others. We must do our best to do what is right with the revelation we have received.

1 Timothy 4:10

10For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1 Peter 1:17
17 The Father is the One Who judges you by what you do. He does not respect one person more than another. If you call Him Father, be sure you honor Him with love and fear all the days of your life here on earth.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Here's the truth:

1 Tim 2

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

As I stated before Gods wishes dont mean he allows everyone to be saved. I could wish to jump 10 times right now, but that doesn't imply I will do it nor is it convinient.

God wants all men to choose him.

He gives us the chance to follow him or reject him.

These verses are also very intriquing. We shouldn't be too hasty to judge the salvation of others. We must do our best to do what is right with the revelation we have received.

1 Timothy 4:10

10For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Are you going to be consistant in the context which you are posting this it would state that God saves everyone (even the ones that dont believe) but especialyl saves the ones that do believe. That is heretical. Insted that passages describes in context that God is the savior of HUMANITY, especially the elect who believe.

1 Peter 1:17
17 The Father is the One Who judges you by what you do. He does not respect one person more than another. If you call Him Father, be sure you honor Him with love and fear all the days of your life here on earth.

Again, after regeneration, ones good works are a byproduct of the holy spirit working in us. Since all of our works are evil and wicked no one of them matter infront of God since they cannot save us (romans3).

Please provide scriptural support for "free will" or a "choice" other than going to hell.

 

[chestertonrules]

((Please provide scriptural support for "free will" or a "choice" other than going to hell.)))


OK:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Mark 8 34 Then, calling the crowd to join his disciples, he said, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. 35 If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it.

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- Matthew 19:16-17 "'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?'...'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'"

 

[Reformationist]

((Please provide scriptural support for "free will" or a "choice" other than going to hell.)))


OK:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Mark 8 34 Then, calling the crowd to join his disciples, he said, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. 35 If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will save it.

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- Matthew 19:16-17 "'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?'...'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'"

You post these verses clearly thinking, as you've proved in other threads, that they are daggers into the heart of reformed theology. They are not. You, like many of your errant brethren, read imperative verses, i.e., this is what you must do, and presume an indicative, i.e., this is what you, in your own power, are able to do. None of the verses you cite do anything more than acknowledge man's responsibility. They do not identify why man forsakes himself and follows God. God's work in the heart of man, converting and quickening him from death in his sins to life in Christ is the foundation for why many believes unto salvation.

God bless

 

[chestertonrules]

You post these verses clearly thinking, as you've proved in other threads, that they are daggers into the heart of reformed theology. They are not. You, like many of your errant brethren, read imperative verses, i.e., this is what you must do, and presume an indicative, i.e., this is what you, in your own power, are able to do. None of the verses you cite do anything more than acknowledge man's responsibility. They do not identify why man forsakes himself and follows God. God's work in the heart of man, converting and quickening him from death in his sins to life in Christ is the foundation for why many believes unto salvation.

God bless

You are reading words into the bible that are not there.

If Paul tells us to strive, then it requires our effort.

If Jesus tells us to forgive others, then this is a task assigned to US.

If we don't bear fruit, is this God's fault?

 

[Reformationist]

You are reading words into the bible that are not there.

Well, let's see if you're right:

If Paul tells us to strive, then it requires our effort.

I agree.

If Jesus tells us to forgive others, then this is a task assigned to US.

Again, I agree.

Neither of these are contrary to the doctrines against which you spend so much time railing so what's your point?

If we don't bear fruit, is this God's fault?

Never said or implied that it was God's fault. Again, I fail to see where you've provided a single shred of legitimate evidence against what predestinarians profess.

God bless