Not being nice as Christians - Different views on Mary

[childofGod1]

Yes, childofGod1, this is beautiful and it makes me speechless when thinking of God. Christians are the luckiest people in the world. Actually the human race is very lucky to have such a forgiving God who reaches out to mere mortals. Unfortunately, there some human beings who deny that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. I am glad, that a Catholic reached out to me and taught me the Hail Mary and through the prayers, I learned to know and love Jesus.

It is really sweet of you childofGod1 coming back to this thread to try to help me. I really am glad you did. Thanks.

Having a bit of confusion regarding Mary at the moment.

Cheers, xTx

xTx,
I'm so glad you see how wonderful God has been to us, it brings tears to my eyes at times, thinking about how loving our God is. The Catholic church, in spite of a few errors, teaches true Christianity.
You've found a good church. I'm always glad to help, if I can.

coG

 

[childofGod1]

Think I will just leave the Mary topic in a corner for now. I get a headache when thinking about all the different views from different churches.

What is most important is that Jesus loves us all.

God bless.

xTx

You said it all right there. Jesus loves us. I can understand getting a headache thinking about all the different views. I'd love to discuss the topic more at a later date when you're ready. Feel free to PM me so I don't miss it next time you do. God bless you in your learning and in your life.

coG

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just wanted to say something just to think about

the early Church and all Christians up to recently believed that Mary didn't sin. The Eastern Orthodox who are the other ancient Church, also believe that she didn't sin. It's not only Catholics. Even Martin Luther had a high view of her. I think that really shows something if people who knew the Apostles believed that Mary didn't sin, I think that has a lot of authority.. much more than our understanding and logic.

But Mary being sinless is very logical. God made her this way, by His grace, so she would honour Him.

In the Catholic Church, before we receive the Eucharist, we need to confess our sins or we dishonour Jesus. But what Mary did was so much greater, she carried Him in her womb and gave Him human nature. It would have dishonoured Him if she were a sinner. Also, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant... the Ark in the Old Testament was holy because it contained the Law. Mary was sanctified by the Holy Spirit so she could bear the Word of God.

 

[Robinsegg]

Hi!

Imo, there are a couple of things that may be seen as "off" by those outside the Catholic church that haven't been mentioned:

1. The idea that the RCC, in particular, seems to put a lot more emphasis on Mary than the New Testament does. The thought being that if she were so important to be sought out and spoken to, why isn't it mentioned in Scripture?

2. The idea that those in Heaven wouldn't have any tears, any pain, any sorrow (judging by how things will be in the New Heaven and New Earth). If one believes this, then one usually also believes that the dead are largely unaware of what happens on Earth, as that would sadden them. The conclusion would be that Mary, as not God but a dead person, would be unable to be aware of the requests for prayer sent her way.

I'm not trying to say y'all are wrong . . . but I thought that might clarify some of the opposition and put forth other questions that could be clarified to those opposing the veneration of Mary.

Rachel

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi!

Imo, there are a couple of things that may be seen as "off" by those outside the Catholic church that haven't been mentioned:

1. The idea that the RCC, in particular, seems to put a lot more emphasis on Mary than the New Testament does. The thought being that if she were so important to be sought out and spoken to, why isn't it mentioned in Scripture?

Please watch this video there's more about Mary in the New (and Old) Testament than people think.
YouTube - Clarification about Sacred Scripture and Mary

2. The idea that those in Heaven wouldn't have any tears, any pain, any sorrow (judging by how things will be in the New Heaven and New Earth). If one believes this, then one usually also believes that the dead are largely unaware of what happens on Earth, as that would sadden them. The conclusion would be that Mary, as not God but a dead person, would be unable to be aware of the requests for prayer sent her way.

I'm not trying to say y'all are wrong . . . but I thought that might clarify some of the opposition and put forth other questions that could be clarified to those opposing the veneration of Mary.

Rachel

Here is how I see this.... I believe those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on earth, and as the Bible says we are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses". They are not somewhere far away. However, I don't think that makes them sad in the way we feel sad. They might still feel grief for sin, as Christ does, - and the perfect happiness that is described in Revelation refers to the time after the Resurrection of the dead and the Last Judgement. I believe people in Heaven are praying for the Church on earth.. because we are united by the Holy Spirit.

The reason I think so is because the most important thing about Heaven is not even the joy of it, but the perfect union with God. If souls there are united with Him, they are able to love more than they could here. They don't stop loving their families and friends on earth. If they still love them, I'm sure they pray for them.

Also, in the Catholic Church, a person is declared a Saint after miracles of intercession take place. That means people ask them for prayers, and if an indisbutable miracle happens, that suggests the person is in Heaven and not in hell, and that God chose them to be a special intercessor as a Saint. Here's an example of such a miracle: Holy Spirit Interactive: Divine Mercy - Faustina's Miracles
the miracles are carefully examined to make sure that no other explanation is possible.

God bless

 

[Robinsegg]

Thanks for the video, it's giving me much to consider and for future study. Personally, I think some of it is a bit of a stretch. However, I have never thought badly of Mary nor spoken badly of her for she was chosen by God, no matter how all that came about, and she was willing to do something hard to be part of His plan.

Rachel

 

[xTx]

xTx,
I'm so glad you see how wonderful God has been to us, it brings tears to my eyes at times, thinking about how loving our God is. The Catholic church, in spite of a few errors, teaches true Christianity.
You've found a good church. I'm always glad to help, if I can.

coG


You said it all right there. Jesus loves us. I can understand getting a headache thinking about all the different views. I'd love to discuss the topic more at a later date when you're ready. Feel free to PM me so I don't miss it next time you do. God bless you in your learning and in your life.

coG

Thanks coG, it is very kind of you. xTx

 

[xTx]

Hi Monica and Rachel, thanks for your responses.

I interrupt the discussions for a bit.

In memory of Amy.
​

I am very sad about Amy's passing away (Kisstheson) is her screen name. Amy passed away on 4th Sept 2010 (Saturday).

For those of you who have not heard of Amy, Amy was very kind to me when I joined Christian Forum. Amy is a gifted artist and writer. She shared so joyfully and freely. You can see her art creations and her writings in the Deeper Fellowship thread. And there is a prayer thread for Amy in the Prayer Request.

Amy is now in the arms of Jesus her beloved Bridegroom. She is in heaven.

 

[vl32]

I think Mary is interesting to think about. She also was the first "mother" and I believe widow of an Apostle, the Apostle John.

Do you think she was a "widow" as Joseph was not at the crucification, or was he? I think Mary was a widow at the time of Jesus' death, and it is also interesting to think that she meet Paul and/or Peter in her old age. I know she is spoken of in the Epistles.

 

[vl32]

Hi Monica and Rachel, thanks for your responses.

I interrupt the discussions for a bit.

In memory of Amy.
​

I am very sad about Amy's passing away (Kisstheson) is her screen name. Amy passed away on 4th Sept 2010 (Saturday).

For those of you who have not heard of Amy, Amy was very kind to me when I joined Christian Forum. Amy is a gifted artist and writer. She shared so joyfully and freely. You can see her art creations and her writings in the Deeper Fellowship thread. And there is a prayer thread for Amy in the Prayer Request.

Amy is now in the arms of Jesus her beloved Bridegroom. She is in heaven.

Oh, yes I knew Amy, kisstheson. I am so sorry and my heart goes out to her and loved ones and family. She was a wonderful friend to me too. Amy was an extraordinary human being; so forgiving and caring and kind.

I think a part of her will live forever in our heart through her art; it touched me a lot, as did her poetry.

My kind condolences to the family.

 

[Robinsegg]

I think Mary is interesting to think about. She also was the first "mother" and I believe widow of an Apostle, the Apostle John.

Do you think she was a "widow" as Joseph was not at the crucification, or was he? I think Mary was a widow at the time of Jesus' death, and it is also interesting to think that she meet Paul and/or Peter in her old age. I know she is spoken of in the Epistles.

Mary was a widow at the time of the crucifixion. That's why He said "woman, this is your son" and, to John "this is your mother". Jesus was making provision for Mary to be cared for, as women couldn't, in that culture, provide for themselves.
Rachel

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Mary was a widow at the time of the crucifixion. That's why He said "woman, this is your son" and, to John "this is your mother". Jesus was making provision for Mary to be cared for, as women couldn't, in that culture, provide for themselves.
Rachel

I believe that everything in the Bible has a spiritual meaning behind it

I think that on one level, yes Jesus was making sure that His Mother would be provided for...

but I kept on wondering, why was this included in Scripture?

My belief is that this is when Jesus gave Mary to the whole Church to be our Mother. We are the "beloved disciple".

"From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

 

[RMDY]

I believe Roman Catholics take it too far when any of them, sanctioned by the Vatican or not, point to the apparition of Mary's messages as something they should follow.

The Mary of the bible I have read, I believe, would never ask people to serve her as if she were a queen on par to a figure like Solomon's mother. This technically elevates her to a position that is like that of a goddess, while denying at the same time that she is even a figure worthy of worship. This whole thing is further complicated when it is said that Mary is a queen of heaven who is a mediator between men and Jesus.

 

[ivebeenshown]

I believe Roman Catholics take it too far when any of them, sanctioned by the Vatican or not, point to the apparition of Mary's messages as something they should follow.

The Mary of the bible I have read, I believe, would never ask people to serve her as if she were a queen on par to a figure like Solomon's mother. This technically elevates her to a position that is like that of a goddess, while denying at the same time that she is even a figure worthy of worship. This whole thing is further complicated when it is said that Mary is a queen of heaven who is a mediator between men and Jesus.

It really is too confusing.

It's like... "You're talking into this telephone, but you're not ACTUALLY speaking into the phone, you're ACTUALLY talking directly to this man, face-to-face, in China. To admit that you are actually speaking into the telephone is blasphemy, and not acceptable. Just pretend the phone doesn't exist."

 

[CreedIsChrist]

though Protestants have a beef with the god-like status Catholics have put Mary on, that's not all. it's the false teachings associated with her, like Mary was born sinless, and has never sinned since birth, even though she's a human descended from Adam. Clearly, the Bible teaches that all people descended from Adam sinned. The Catholic church goes against the Bible for the sake of Mary worship.

So the worshipping of Mary in addition to false teaching is what Protestants have a beef with, not "liking" Mary.

are you saying Jesus was housed and born from a sinful woman?? must I remind you the bible also talks about the transfer of original sin from birth..It is considered dishonorable to try to debate or think of Mary as being sinful. It is something I would not dare pronounce out of respect for our Lord. Considering she was conferred a special grace by being the Mother of God and the chosen ark for his body.

Mary "remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin." (Sermon 186)

"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56).
​

We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. (On Nature and Grace, XXXVI)

- St. Augustine
​

 

[Robinsegg]

Wouldn't Scripture teach that for a woman to deny physical union with her husband was sinful? If that is in line with RCC teaching, then you can't have it both ways: either she joined with her husband (without sin, as Adam & Eve in the garden could) or she dishonored her wedding vows before God.

I've never heard this doctrine brought forth in quite this way, so it's something new for me to think about. But I will say that a lot of this seems like quite a stretch for something that's not explicitly stated in Scripture about her.

Rachel

 

[RMDY]

are you saying Jesus was housed and born from a sinful woman??

God is able to turn water into wine and multiplay a few loaves and fish in order to feed a multitude, but you cannot accept that by the power of God a sinless man can be born from a sinful women? If a sinless man was born from a sinful women, all the more to praise God for his miracle! After all, a miracle defies the laws of nature. Is anything too hard for the Lord? Is his arm too short to do anything?

Believing Mary as sinless is wishful thinking. That is like saying she didn't need a savior---that Jesus didn't need to die for her, that she was born and didn't need reconciliation back to God.

 

[Monarchist]

Mother Earth worship was part of the pagan religion, the CC decided to use Mary as the bait and switch tool to bring the pagans under romes control
The bible is clear about worshipping any thing or person other than God and Christ

Mary as historical Christians in the bible go, only played a small part in Christ's life
In fact a couple of times in the bible Christ distanced himself from his parents to do his "Fathers" work
Christ went to the synagogue as a boy and latter asked his mother why she was bothering him about the wine stocks running low at the party where he did his first miracle

If Mary was sinless then Christ wouldnt have to have come. Mary could have died for mankind

 

[AvalonXQ]

are you saying Jesus was housed and born from a sinful woman??

Yes, He was.

must I remind you the bible also talks about the transfer of original sin from birth..

I'm sorry, but "Original Sin" is not a Biblical concept. There is no such thing. Each man and woman sins in him or herself; while we suffer the physical consequences of the sins of others, it is only our own sins that condemn us.
Like all humans, Jesus was born sinless. Unlike all other humans, Jesus was tempted and chose not to sin.
Bible-based Christianity doesn't need "Immaculate Conception" because that doctrine is only needed to reconcile Jesus' sinlessness with the un-Biblical doctrine of "Original Sin". In the absence of the latter doctrine, the former doctrine is just as superfluous.

 

[Monarchist]

Yes, He was.


I'm sorry, but "Original Sin" is not a Biblical concept. There is no such thing. Each man and woman sins in him or herself; while we suffer the physical consequences of the sins of others, it is only our own sins that condemn us.
Like all humans, Jesus was born sinless. Unlike all other humans, Jesus was tempted and chose not to sin.
Bible-based Christianity doesn't need "Immaculate Conception" because that doctrine is only needed to reconcile Jesus' sinlessness with the un-Biblical doctrine of "Original Sin". In the absence of the latter doctrine, the former doctrine is just as superfluous.

I am guessing you can back all that up biblically, you know from scripture?