Normal or paranormal

[GrowingSmaller]

I think a lot of things. Not all my thoughts lead to deeds.

The thoughts, in and of themselves, do no affect the universe. If you disagree, then you have to show how/why thoughts affect the universe.

Point in time A.
Point in time B.

I paused between writing "Point in time A." and writing "Point in time B." Between writing those two statements, I intentionally thought of something unrelated to this thread. Please show how those thoughts affected the universe (without resorting to a paranormal explanation).

Thoughts you had - you communicates the idea of having them. Thats an effect. If you did not have them, then on what basis would your contentention (ie you had thoughts, at least) stand?

Also knowledge is a part o fthe universe, If you did not communicate them (the aforementioned thoughts) you yourself knew you had them. Another effect.

Like sunshine, you know of it bacause of a causal relationship you stand in relation to it with.

 

[ecco]

ecco:
I think a lot of things. Not all my thoughts lead to deeds.

The thoughts, in and of themselves, do no affect the universe. If you disagree, then you have to show how/why thoughts affect the universe.

Point in time A.
Point in time B.

I paused between writing "Point in time A." and writing "Point in time B." Between writing those two statements, I intentionally thought of something unrelated to this thread. Please show how those thoughts affected the universe (without resorting to a paranormal explanation). ​

Thoughts you had - you communicates the idea of having them. Thats an effect.

All you did was show my communication had an effect. You failed to show that my thoughts had an effect.

Please show how those thoughts affected the universe (without resorting to a paranormal explanation).

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Thoughts have physical correlates in the brain, just as a "phenomenal" candle has physical correlates in the external world. The brain has a light cone. All possible effects are contained within this light cone that travels at the speed of light, or slower (within that conne rather than at the extremities). If thoughts at least have physical correlates, and physical correlates have effects (eg a neuron firing has an effect) then thoughts have effects. Or they are at least correlated to effects.
Correlated only?


But again,


If your communication "I had thoughts" is based in the phenomenal (I witness having thoughts), then the communication demonstrates that the phenomenal had causal power, rather than being something merely correlated to physical causes etc.

Thoughs cause the possibility of communication (or choosing not to communicate them). But thoughts nontheless cause suble changes in mood, facial expression, body language etc.

In other words, thought can't be epiphenomenal, ulness (which is absurd) the vocalulary of folk psychology is uncaused. The language of folk psychology is an effect of thoughts, feelings, desires etc. Thus, much of our everyday speech is an effect of such. Not folk psychology is about phenomenal mental life, not zombie style scenarios.

For me, a thought "on its own" in causal islolation doesnt exist, just like a phenomenal candle doesnt exist in causal isolation. Even if you put the candle under a container....(cf Matthew 5:15....)

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

...but not necessarily astrophysical consequences.

If I say "I had a thought" then this speech has a light cone. You know what a light cone is, I hope?

If I remain silent, or dont type then the silence (lips remain closed, fingets still etc) has a light cone too.

In astrophysics, a light cone is the path that a flash of light, emanating from a single event (localized to a single point in space and a single moment in time) and traveling in all directions, would take through spacetime - Wikipedia.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. - Bible

The thoughts I had yesterday have a lignt cone of one light day.

Thats as far as Sedna, and back! (Sedna is a minor planet on the outer reaches of the solar system)....

 

[quatona]

If I say "I had a thought" then this speeckh has a light cone. You know what a light cone is, I hope?

In astrophysics, a light cone is the path that a flash of light, emanating from a single event (localized to a single point in space and a single moment in time) and traveling in all directions, would take through spacetime - Wikipedia.

...and that´s paranormal?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Ask ecco. He seems to think it is.

see this post:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/normal-or-paranormal.7921565/page-2#post-69003690

See my post#12

Yes I agree, but the way I look at things the "unexplained" is not unexplainable, just yet to be "norlmalised" under the rubrics of science. So its paranormal, even if only for a while.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

The way I see it is the brain is a cognitve structure, and one can be in "heaven or hell (etc)" according to that structure. Or a semblance of them. See the Buddhist "Wheel of life", and related "mental karma and attitude" which travels you there.

Thus what I communicate to you of my aesthetic experience, of love of life (or its absence) relates to the structure of the brain. The universe is nestled in my brain.

Merriam Webster Dictionary:

• to lie comfortably close to or against someone or something
  
  
• : to place (something) close to, next to, or within something
  
  
• : to land or settle softly into something

As I travel up and down though the day, my body language express this and help recreate space time in each moment. In a flash of spiritual light. As I dip my body into the the "akashic waters of mystery." (no trolling intended, mysticism just for fun, what I mean is the living room etc)....

In fact sometimes I think that just being (with a smile to you all) is a proof of Einsteins equations.

 

[quatona]

Ask ecco. He seems to think it is.

I don´t have a conversation with ecco. I had one with you.

See my post#12

Yes I agree, but the way I look at things the "unexplained" is not unexplainable, just yet to be "norlmalised" under the rubrics of science. So its paranormal, even if only for a while.

Of course you are free to redefine words as you see fit.
However, the "lie beyond" in the definition you provided in the opening post appears to me to communicate something different than you make it out to mean.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Yup we have meandered somewhat...

Also I find it hard to keep track, party because i still can barely remember so many peoples names, even after 3 or 4 years here, never mind mind set and beliefs.

 

[quatona]

Well, the problem is:
Just because a phenomenon used to be unexplained and is now explained doesn´t point to a "dual aspect". It points to a change.

 

[ecco]

Thoughts have physical correlates in the brain, just as a "phenomenal" candle has physical correlates in the external world. The brain has a light cone. All possible effects are contained within this light cone that travels at the speed of light, or slower (within that conne rather than at the extremities). If thoughts at least have physical correlates, and physical correlates have effects (eg a neuron firing has an effect) then thoughts have effects. Or they are at least correlated to effects.
Correlated only?

Please show how those thoughts affected the universe (without resorting to a paranormal explanation).

But again,


If your communication "I had thoughts" is based in the phenomenal (I witness having thoughts), then the communication demonstrates that the phenomenal had causal power, rather than being something merely correlated to physical causes etc.

Thoughs cause the possibility of communication (or choosing not to communicate them). But thoughts nontheless cause suble changes in mood, facial expression, body language etc.

Please show how those thoughts affected the universe (without resorting to a paranormal explanation).

In other words, thought can't be epiphenomenal, ulness (which is absurd) the vocalulary of folk psychology is uncaused. The language of folk psychology is an effect of thoughts, feelings, desires etc. Thus, much of our everyday speech is an effect of such. Not folk psychology is about phenomenal mental life, not zombie style scenarios.

For me, a thought "on its own" in causal islolation doesnt exist, just like a phenomenal candle doesnt exist in causal isolation. Even if you put the candle under a container....(cf Matthew 5:15....)

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

If you are quoting scripture, you are invoking the supernatural/paranormal.

Please show how those thoughts affected the universe (without resorting to a paranormal explanation).


I harp on this because you said, in Post #21:

The universe is balanced on the framework of the brain, and you affect the universe with evey single cognitive action. And thought and deed.​

 

[ecco]

Ask ecco. He seems to think it is.

see this post:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/normal-or-paranormal.7921565/page-2#post-69003690

I would appreciate not being quoted out of context. Let's look at the exchange IN context:

GrowingSmaller:

The way I see it is like a framework. The universe is balanced on the framework of the brain, and you affect the universe with evey single cognitive action. And thought and deed.​

Ecco:

The above is an example of belief in the paranormal.​

GrowingSmaller:

If I say "I had a thought" then this speech has a light cone. You know what a light cone is, I hope?
If I remain silent, or dont type then the silence (lips remain closed, fingets still etc) has a light cone too.
In astrophysics, a light cone is the path that a flash of light, emanating from a single event (localized to a single point in space and a single moment in time) and traveling in all directions, would take through spacetime -Wikipedia.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. - Bible
The thoughts I had yesterday have a lignt cone of one light day.
Thats as far as Sedna, and back! (Sedna is a minor planet on the outer reaches of the solar system)....​

Quatona:

..and that´s paranormal?​

GrowingSmaller:

Ask ecco. He seems to think it is.​

I certainly do not think your wiki quote is paranormal:

In astrophysics, a light cone is the path that a flash of light, emanating from a single event (localized to a single point in space and a single moment in time) and traveling in all directions, would take through spacetime ​

What I do think, and what I previously stated, is that your belief...

"The universe is balanced on the framework of the brain, and you affect the universe with evey single cognitive action. And thought and deed." ​

...is a paranormal belief.

​

I also think your...

"The thoughts I had yesterday have a lignt cone of one light day." ​

...is paranormal nonsense that you pulled out of your (to be polite) hat.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Looks at my last two quotes in the post above...
Why is it paranormal? What is paranormal about the idea thoughts have a causal power? I have tried to defend the claim, but I suppose I would have to understand how you could be right, better, for the conversaiton to work properly. After all I might be missing something "obvious".

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well, the problem is:
Just because a phenomenon used to be unexplained and is now explained doesn´t point to a "dual aspect". It points to a change.

Yes but the idea of thought causation wasnt my original example IIRC. I mentioned the laws of physics initially, and you made a intelligent response. But i am happy enough to go through the ideas.

 

[ecco]

"The universe is balanced on the framework of the brain, and you affect the universe with evey single cognitive action. And thought and deed."

Looks at my last two quotes in the post above...
Why is it paranormal? What is paranormal about the idea thoughts have a causal power? I have tried to defend the claim, but I suppose I would have to understand how you could be right, better, for the conversaiton to work properly. After all I might be missing something "obvious".

The "something obvious" that you are missing is that you have not demonstrated that thoughts have an affect on the universe. The closest you have come is to state that some thoughts turn into actions.



You also posted...

The thoughts I had yesterday have a lignt cone of one light day.​

...but gave no explanation on what that is supposed to mean or on what it is based.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Ok, if thoughts turn into actions then they have effects, because to act on a thought is to have some form of causal relationship to a thought. For instance if you think " there is honey in the cupboard" and go to the cupboard, then you have acted on the thought.

Without the thought, you may well have not gone to the cupboard for the honey.

The thought was probably a condition of the action, individually insufficient, but a part of a complex of conditions which are jointly necessary.

An analogy could be with a car, an engine is necessary for a car, along with petrol, wheels etc, but on its own insufficuient for a car and drving - but it is still part of a causal relationship, a necessary part of the motion which belongs to cars when we drive them.

****

Now a light cone is a concept from physics - if I click my fingers (and act on the thought "Ill click my fingers") the consequences of that click etc are contained within a "light cone" - basically the fastest that any effects can move is light speed. The image of the click travels faster than the sound, we all know that. If youre 20 feet away youll see the click before you hear it. So, all possible effects of my thought "Ill click my fingers" or "theres honey in the cupbord" are contained somewhere within a light cone. Of course, if I am in a room with the curtains closed, then theres no room for light to escape, and effects will be blocked out.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone