Nonsexual lusting

[HannahT]

Originally Posted by LinkH
From what I've read, the word translated 'lust' in the New Testament does not always refer to sexual lust.

I agree. I think the best way to describe lust (all lust)....is to have excessive desire for something outside of God's will.

I understand. I was referring to his statement of 'committing adultery in his heart'. I would assume this type of lust would be sexual in nature no?

 

[HannahT]

I agree. I think the best way to describe lust (all lust)....is to have excessive desire for something outside of God's will.

About Hermas, whether he was supposed to have desired the woman in a sexual or nonsexual manner isn't specifically stated. He may have been justifying himself in his own mind in that story. It did cause me to think of the issue of nonsexual lusting when I wrote it.

In English, we use the word 'lust' in an exclusively sexual sense. The Biblical use of the term seems to refer to illegitimate desire, and Paul associates it with the command 'thou shalt not covet.' The word often seems to be used to refer to sexual lust though. But a man coveting his neighbor's wife for her apple pies is still coveting, and he is giving in to some kind of lust, IMO.


Btw, I think there is a difference between lusting and coveting, since 'when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin.' Lust brings forth sin. It is not sin. Lust conceives sin if we yield to the lust. Paul says not to yield your members into sin. Yielding to lust can be ask simple as yielding the eyes.



What if it goes a step further and he says to himself, "I wish she were my wife"? He could do this without having sexual thoughts.

lol being that I'm not the character, and am not familiar with him? I have no idea.

When someone says something like that? It doesn't always have to be about sexual thoughts. IMO.

Being someone mentioned that the character is married? That would be a NO NO! Sin.

 

[mkgal1]

Personally, I've never really understood the need to distinguish between where one is merely headed towards sin....and when one is *actually* sinning (referring to that verse that says "lust brings forth sin". If one heads in that direction.....the result is inevitable. If I know that a certain exit off the freeway leads to a dangerous neighborhood (for the only example I could think of).....I just don't risk it......there's no reason to take that exit, if it only leads to danger. It's much simpler (and safer) to stay on the freeway.

 

[mkgal1]

I understand. I was referring to his statement of 'committing adultery in his heart'. I would assume this type of lust would be sexual in nature no?

Not necessarily. Like his (Link's) example of the other woman that baked wonderful pies---and the man coveted her for that reason. That's dissatisfaction and a lack of contentment for his own wife.....and, it's not sexual. I agree that it's still committing adultery in his heart.

The parallel is all the ways we can have idols in place of our love for God. IOW.....if we don't have God as our supreme and ultimate love......we are idolizing something else (even "good" things can be in that place reserved for God).

ETA: A book (with a video summary) on the subject:

Counterfeit Gods: The Empty Promises of Money, Sex, and Power, and the Only Hope That Matters

 

[LinkH]

Not necessarily. Like his (Link's) example of the other woman that baked wonderful pies---and the man coveted her for that reason. That's dissatisfaction and a lack of contentment for his own wife.....and, it's not sexual. I agree that it's still committing adultery in his heart.

Do you think if a man likes his own wife's pies too much, he is committing adultery with his own wife? I wonder if that RCC speaker whose not a priest that you often post links to would interpret it that way.

 

[LinkH]

I understand. I was referring to his statement of 'committing adultery in his heart'. I would assume this type of lust would be sexual in nature no?

You do make a very valid point. Nonsexual lusting after someone else's wife could be coveting in the heart even if it isn't adultery.

From reading the first bit of Vision 1 in the The Shepherd of Hermas, it seems that the desires in Hermas' heart went beyond seeing her as a sister even if he told himself that. That's how I interpret it.

The book is a book of visions and similar stories from around the mid second century. It was quite popular, even read in some churches. There are some traditions, if I remember correctly, that asserted that Hermas' brother was the bishop of Rome, which probably added to it's popularity and perceived credibility.

As far marriage issues in the book goes, the first vision says that if a man's wife commits fornication and he doesn't know and continues to be with her, he does not sin. But if he knows, he sins. If she doesn't sin, he is to divorce her, but not remarry or that would be adultery. It says if she repents and wants to reconcile, he must do so. It's interesting reading and maybe there is some influence on how the RCC position on the topic evolved, or at least a reflection of the thinking of the time that evolved into this position on the topic. If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, you can look up Shepherd of Hermas on a Google search, or type in several lines of the quote I gave in the OP.

 

[mkgal1]

Do you think if a man likes his own wife's pies too much, he is committing adultery with his own wife? I wonder if that RCC speaker whose not a priest that you often post links to would interpret it that way.

Yeah.....I was picking up on that parallel here.

The way I see it is (I can't answer for Christopher West)....but, if a man is married to his wife *for* her pie-baking ability (strictly).......and that's what he loves about her ultimately (and he requires that she bakes him pies at least 3 times per week).....he's being unfaithful to her (or....another way to say it would be, "he's not loving her faithfully"....not within God's parameters of love). Love isn't selfish.....love isn't haughty.....love isn't rude and demanding. That's the same thing we do with God......placing our desires for other things above our desires for Him. As in that Timothy Keller video I just linked......we can even make our commitment to religion an idol.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.~Romans 1:21

That's idolatry.

The same can be said of marriage (adultery). A person can "think up foolish ideas of what their spouse *should* be like".....and worship....long for.....lust for that created image. It diminishes the relationship.

 

[JohnDB]

That's idolatry.

The same can be said of marriage (adultery). A person can "think up foolish ideas of what their spouse *should* be like".....and worship....long for.....lust for that created image. It diminishes the relationship.

*foolish*?????

What denotes a desire about a spouse is foolish?
I had many desires & my wife fullfills them all. Some might think some oof my desires were foolish but these desired attributes in my wife makes me happy.

I've seen some fairly unordinary couples deep in love over some rather unique behaviors. (Including myself)

 

[ChristianGolfer]

*foolish*?????

What denotes a desire about a spouse is foolish?
I had many desires & my wife fullfills them all. Some might think some oof my desires were foolish but these desired attributes in my wife makes me happy.

I've seen some fairly unordinary couples deep in love over some rather unique behaviors. (Including myself)

I think mkgal was referring to unrealistic desires. Like wishing your spouse were something that he/she is not rather than loving him/her for what he/she is. Or only loving one's spouse for what he/she does rather than who they are.

That doesn't appear to me to be what you're referring to.

 

[Hetta]

Right. I think that what mkgal is talking about is in extremes, not just the ordinary every day things, where we expect our spouse to love us - warts and all.

 

[RDKirk]

Let's say a man sees a married woman and desires her to be his wife, but doesn't think any sexual thoughts. Let's say she cooks really well, or she's smart, and he thinks I wish this were my wife. He looks at her, and lusts after her for nonsexual reasons. That's looking with lust, too, isnt' it.

Correct. It's not about solely the sex.

If I as a married man look at another woman and think, "I'd like to be married to her," yes, I am commiting adultery in my heart even if I'm only thinking about how pleasantly she sings and plays the piano.

It's still adultery if I become displeased with my wife because she doesn't meet some absolute standard I've set--an imaginary Stepford Wife. The woman I'm committing adultery with in my heart might be wholly imaginary, but it's adultery of the heart nonetheless.

 

[LinkH]

It's still adultery if I become displeased with my wife because she doesn't meet some absolute standard I've set--an imaginary Stepford Wife.

How is that adultery? Does every marital problem or even sin in marriage fall into the adultery category?

Btw, would they have stoned someone for that in the Old Testament?

The woman I'm committing adultery with in my heart might be wholly imaginary, but it's adultery of the heart nonetheless.

I don't see how adultery is used quite that broadly in the Bible, even in Matthew 5.

 

[mkgal1]

Correct. It's not about solely the sex.

If I as a married man look at another woman and think, "I'd like to be married to her," yes, I am commiting adultery in my heart even if I'm only thinking about how pleasantly she sings and plays the piano.

It's still adultery if I become displeased with my wife because she doesn't meet some absolute standard I've set--an imaginary Stepford Wife. The woman I'm committing adultery with in my heart might be wholly imaginary, but it's adultery of the heart nonetheless.

I agree. Well said.

 

[mkgal1]

How is that adultery? Does every marital problem or even sin in marriage fall into the adultery category?

I don't think so. I think RDKirk's description is the best explanation of what falls into the category of adultery. Some things are just being unloving and selfish. That's different than coveting a different wife (even if it's just an image in one's mind).

I don't see how adultery is used quite that broadly in the Bible, even in Matthew 5.

I think understanding what idolatry is helps us to understand what adultery is. It's very similar to "you should have NO other gods before me".

 

[RDKirk]

How is that adultery? Does every marital problem or even sin in marriage fall into the adultery category?

Btw, would they have stoned someone for that in the Old Testament?



I don't see how adultery is used quite that broadly in the Bible, even in Matthew 5.

Because here we're talking about the "weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness." If I'm becoming disaffected from my wife--wishing she were someone else--I'm losing faithfulness to her.

We're talking about lust of the heart, which isn't limited to lust for another flesh-and-blood woman. That's where it applies, for instance, to pornography and for that matter, to CGI pornography, and even to a full mental construct. The point is that I'm replacing a desire that should be reserved for my wife with a desire for something else.

The whole point of "lust in the heart" is that it's not confined to actual material, but to the spirit and mind.