Nonsexual lusting

[mkgal1]

Lusting is basically coveting. Coveting is where you want something that you have no right to. So essentially it doesn't matter what the lust is related to in terms of desire.

I agree. I'd even put it in a more positive way (less restrictive). It's not about deprivation (things we have no right to)........it's about Him wanting the BEST for us. His parameters are for our good. They are protective borders.......and, I believe, inside those borders is peace.

 

[Yoona86]

Married or not appreciation of beauty is not inherently lustful. In that consistently misquoted verse Jesus taught it was lusting with the intent to commit adultery that was wrong. That is much more than just finding someone attractive.

John
NZ

I agree, imagine appreciation of beauty is a sin, and then combine that with a literal interpretation where Jesus ask one to pluck their eyes out....

 

[mkgal1]

Mkgal's quote is a vision where this woman, Rhoda is said to be his accuser in heaven. That puts her in Satan's position of accuser and not the position of a truth teller.

Satan isn't in heaven, though.

 

[JohnDB]

Envy & jealousy are two different biblical concepts.

One is wanting something because it is good. The other is wanting something in order to deprive someone else.

But in this case the author is wanting his wife to be someone she is not.
He wishes her to be prettier & better in assisting him.
(Kinda common thinking imho)

All too common thinking. We want things but are unwilling to pay the real price they cost. We often wish for a closer relationship with God but do nothing about it. We wish for better relationships but do nothing to others to encourage them.

Here this guy wants either this woman or one just like her. Will he do what is necessary to gain?......NOPE

 

[mkgal1]

Envy & jealousy are two different biblical concepts.

One is wanting something because it is good. The other is wanting something in order to deprive someone else.

But in this case the author is wanting his wife to be someone she is not.
He wishes her to be prettier & better in assisting him.
(Kinda common thinking imho)

All too common thinking. We want things but are unwilling to pay the real price they cost. We often wish for a closer relationship with God but do nothing about it. We wish for better relationships but do nothing to others to encourage them.

Here this guy wants either this woman or one just like her. Will he do what is necessary to gain?......NOPE

Great points. Whose agenda does that sound like?

The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.~John 10:10

 

[HannahT]

Many years ago, I read part of the Shepherd of Hermas. I don't want to argue for how legitimate the writing is, but it is interesting. In it, Hermas is reproved of sinning for his thoughts about a woman.

:1 The master, who reared me, had sold me to one Rhoda in Rome. After many years, I met her again, and began to love her as a sister.
1:2 After a certain time I saw her bathing in the river Tiber; and I gave her my hand, and led her out of the river. So, seeing her beauty, I reasoned in my heart, saying, "Happy were I, if I had such an one to wife both in beauty and in character." I merely reflected on this and nothing more.

If a man looks on a woman to desire her-- to be his wife without thinking sexual thoughts-- is this also committing adultery in his heart? A man is not to covet his neighbor's wife.

I think you are combining to different principals here.

Covet to me is similar to envy. Yearn to possess or have (something).

You mentioned he was reproved for the envy.

Lust to me is very different. Lust is a yearning to USE that something you wish to process or have. You use that person in your mind - and they are no longer a person. They are an object to be used for your own satisfaction. You toy with that object in your mind, because to me at that point they are NOT a person anymore.

From what little you wrote? Lust no. Envy yes.

 

[LinkH]

I don't see that Hermas did anything wrong. I don't seem him desiring to take Rhoda away from her husband. It seems all his thought was is here is a beautiful woman inside and out and how this is the type of woman who makes for a good wife. Mkgal's quote is a vision where this woman, Rhoda is said to be his accuser in heaven. That puts her in Satan's position of accuser and not the position of a truth teller. Hermas's on comment is simple to observe that this woman is a good example of what makes a good wife. Its Rhoda's accusations that there is something he is doing wrong. I don't see anything wrong in Hermas' comments.

However, it seems that the narrator (Hermas) is married:

As Hermas was on the road to Cumae, he had a vision of Rhoda. She told him that she was his accuser in heaven, on account of an unchaste thought the (married) narrator had once had concerning her, though only in passing. He was to pray for forgiveness for himself and all his house
​

Unless Hermas in the story wasn't truly being honest with himself. She had just been bathing and he was hanging around there.

When it comes to admiring beauty, I wouldn't say admiring beauty is a sin. But I know we human beings have a tendency to justify ourselves, and one person may say to himself, "I was just admiring her beauty. That is not a sin." After doing the exact same thing, another person may say to himself, "I have looked and lusted after her. I have sinned against the Lord."

 

[ImaginaryDay]

It is standard Christian theology that ascribes beauty in creation to God as the only Being capable of such creativity and resourcefulness. To acknowledge beauty as a gift, wherever we are blessed by its presence, it to engage in worship, wonder, and thanksgiving, and when we produce something of beauty we experience the satisfaction of following in God's footsteps. The Psalmist often wrote of the wonder of God's creation. Solomon was characterised by excellence in knowledge, creativity and sublime artistry as well as his wisdom. In fact all his best aesthetic achievements were an expression of wisdom, and therefore reflective of God's wisdom and creativity. I find it a bit odd that Christians readily express their appreciation of beauty for many things - nature, landscapes, great commercial designs or fashion, yet tend towards guilt or uncertainty over a beautiful woman.

The 'desires of the eyes' is not the denial of beauty but our motives and unthankfulness as we merely use something for our own ends.

John
NZ

Show me where Hermas ascribed any of this woman's beauty to God. He desired her in his own sight and meditated on that thought alone. John warned against that as being not of God, but of the world. Even Solomon for all his wisdom recognized in the end it was all fleeting and elusive.

 

[mkgal1]

At minimum.......based on the text.....don't we at least know that his thoughts were unchaste (as it was worded)?

Doesn't that fit with 1st Peter 2:11?

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.

Isn't our aim to allow God to "create in me a clean heart" so that we may enjoy His peace (and not go through the cycle of feeling deprived/guilty and shameful)? From what I gather.....that's what the "big picture" meaning is behind the Shepherd----repentance and restoration.

 

[McScribe]

I find from personal experience that it is helpful to meditate on why we are tempted by things. We may find, surprisingly, that it is less about the objects of our lust and more about us as we go through such meditations, and we can then use prayer far more effectively, I've found. It is often less about a particular person than it is about a lack of a sense of beauty in our own lives, or loneliness or shame or various fears we struggle with.

 

[LinkH]

I think you are combining to different principals here.

Covet to me is similar to envy. Yearn to possess or have (something).

You mentioned he was reproved for the envy.

We could look it up in Lightfoot's translation of The Shepherd of Hermas online. But as I recall, he was reproved for lust.

I don't equate coventing with envy as distinct from lust, but the two are related concepts. I equate lust and coveting because Paul wrote, "For I had not know lust, if the law had not said, "Thou shalt not covet." And I agree with the posters who say that 'lust' in scripture is not necessarily a sexual thing.

Lust to me is very different. Lust is a yearning to USE that something you wish to process or have. You use that person in your mind - and they are no longer a person. They are an object to be used for your own satisfaction. You toy with that object in your mind, because to me at that point they are NOT a person anymore.

I don't know about the not a person thing. I think it's possible to lust after someone and still think of that person as a person. Someone could lust after his neighbor's wife, even if he knows her very well and has great admiration for many aspects of her character and personality. That type of lusting might even be more dangerous as far as leading to an affair or running of with the neighbor's wife than the type that involves porno magazines or ogling some stranger.

In the story, it appears the woman was bathing in the Tiber, and Hermas helped her out. Maybe it was normal for servants to do such things. It could also be that the woman was really modest about it. Or it could be one of those scenarios where the man thinks he can see a bathing woman without lusting. Kind of like a man thinking he can go into a strip club without sinning in his heart.

 

[child630]

So all that John said about the 'desires of the eyes' was not applicable to (so-called) merely "appreciating beauty"? It seems to me that Eve set the pattern:



Our subject in the OP "merely reflected" on his thoughts. I can imagine Eve did the same before she acted with some consequences she didn't count on.

I thought that the sin happened when she took the bite, not before. When are tempted, it's not sin, is it? I could be wrong.

 

[HannahT]

We could look it up in Lightfoot's translation of The Shepherd of Hermas online. But as I recall, he was reproved for lust

Well, as I mentioned Link. I'm not familiar with the story you mentioned.

You did say in a non sexual manner. To me when you referred to, 'committing adultery in his heart'? To me that refers to 'lust' of a sexual manner. Someone is using another person in their mind in a sexual manner. He no longer see the her as a person, but someone to use in his fantasies of the mind.

Coveting to me - I wish my wife was so pretty and intelligent. Non- sexual.

I guess other people have different definitions for the words. To me they are completely different.

 

[mkgal1]

I thought that the sin happened when she took the bite, not before. When are tempted, it's not sin, is it? I could be wrong.

If something is "waging war against our soul"......doesn't that steal away the peace that God has for us?

To use Adam and Eve as a hypothetical example......if they *hadn't* actually taken a bite of the fruit that day (but, *wanted to*....and continually battled that---white knuckling it)......wouldn't that change their attitude from perfect peace with God? Instead of seeing all that God *had* given them......I imagine they'd be focused on what they can't have (the fruit from that tree). Just because they stopped before that line was crossed (hypothetically).....doesn't mean (IMO) they haven't sinned. Sin is missing God's mark of perfection. He doesn't want for anything to be between Him and us. He doesn't want for us to be disabled by feelings of deprivation......feelings of shame......feelings of defeat......and a lack of peace.

 

[mkgal1]

I thought that the sin happened when she took the bite, not before. When are tempted, it's not sin, is it? I could be wrong.

I think it depends upon our response to that testing. If we *want* what's being offered above wanting what God's offered us.....then, I do believe we've veered off into sin. When our desires for other things supersede God's will......I believe we've sinned. When we see sinful things as "pleasing" (as Adam and Eve did)....that's the first step of sin. When the *only* thing that's keeping us from sin is the "rule" (and not that we actually hate that sin)....I believe that's sin. It causes us to see God as restrictive, instead of loving with a generous love.

Jesus never saw any sin as enticing or alluring......a good example of how He handled temptation is in Matthew 4:1-11.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

While this may sound like a joke... is it lusting to constantly thinking about if lusting? I'd imagine so since it becomes your idol you focus on.

 

[Hetta]

If something is "waging war against our soul"......doesn't that steal away the peace that God has for us?

To use Adam and Eve as a hypothetical example......if they *hadn't* actually taken a bite of the fruit that day (but, *wanted to*....and continually battled that---white knuckling it)......wouldn't that change their attitude from perfect peace with God? Instead of seeing all that God *had* given them......I imagine they'd be focused on what they can't have (the fruit from that tree). Just because they stopped before that line was crossed (hypothetically).....doesn't mean (IMO) they haven't sinned. Sin is missing God's mark of perfection. He doesn't want for anything to be between Him and us. He doesn't want for us to be disabled by feelings of deprivation......feelings of shame......feelings of defeat......and a lack of peace.

I think that this is very similar to the way I would think about it. Lusting after anything - for any reason - doesn't sound godly.

 

[LinkH]

From what I've read, the word translated 'lust' in the New Testament does not always refer to sexual lust. Here are some verses that use the word.

Mark 4:19
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1 Timothy 6:9
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

James 4:2
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

[LinkH]

You did say in a non sexual manner. To me when you referred to, 'committing adultery in his heart'? To me that refers to 'lust' of a sexual manner. Someone is using another person in their mind in a sexual manner. He no longer see the her as a person, but someone to use in his fantasies of the mind.

About Hermas, whether he was supposed to have desired the woman in a sexual or nonsexual manner isn't specifically stated. He may have been justifying himself in his own mind in that story. It did cause me to think of the issue of nonsexual lusting when I wrote it.

In English, we use the word 'lust' in an exclusively sexual sense. The Biblical use of the term seems to refer to illegitimate desire, and Paul associates it with the command 'thou shalt not covet.' The word often seems to be used to refer to sexual lust though. But a man coveting his neighbor's wife for her apple pies is still coveting, and he is giving in to some kind of lust, IMO.


Btw, I think there is a difference between lusting and coveting, since 'when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin.' Lust brings forth sin. It is not sin. Lust conceives sin if we yield to the lust. Paul says not to yield your members into sin. Yielding to lust can be ask simple as yielding the eyes.

Coveting to me - I wish my wife was so pretty and intelligent. Non- sexual.

What if it goes a step further and he says to himself, "I wish she were my wife"? He could do this without having sexual thoughts.

 

[mkgal1]

From what I've read, the word translated 'lust' in the New Testament does not always refer to sexual lust.

I agree. I think the best way to describe lust (all lust)....is to have excessive desire for something outside of God's will.