NonChristian Presidency???

[TheBear]

Originally posted by Morat
  You must not read the same papers I do. Admittedly, under the headline "Bush Won", reading all the way down to the bottom, you find out that out of the 4 possible ways to count the vote, Gore won 2 (including the one most likely, legally) and Bush 2.

   You really should make it a habit to read articles backwards. Most papers won't lie, but they'll slant things. The real information, such as it is, is buried below the fold, back in the "continued on page 23" and in general at the back of the article. 


Here


  And, lest we forget, that victory did sort of require that almost 60,000 people be purged from the voting rolls, for having names that were "sorta similiar" to convicted felons.

  Regardless, of course, of whether these ex-felons had the right to vote (most did. Few states permanently strip the right to vote). And of course, the number of false positives was staggering.


  Bush is, of course, President. But to pretend he is as legitimate as any other President is ignoring reality.


 

A recount is a recount. With or without; chads, dimples or any other ballot scam scenario.

By and large, newspapers sell an agenda. There are few exceptions.

John

 

[Morat]

  The advice to read articles backwards, especially politically based ones (although I've found virtually everything is like this) has been some of the best advice I've ever recieved.

   I don't remember who shared the notion with me, but it's been invaluable. My own hometown paper is, as best I can tell, fairly middle-of-the-road. Leastwise, people write in screaming about it's liberal or conservative bias once a week or more.

   And I'm shocked by the number of headlines that are flatly contradicted by the actual story. Once you get past the first 4 or 5 paragraphs.

 

 

[TC]

We should vote for Christians, no doubt.  Have we ever elected a non-Christian?  Of course.  What do you call Clinton?  I get the feeling that in many people's minds, unless you openly state that you are a Hindu, or Muslim or whatever, you must be a Christian if you are in the U.S.

 

Don't look at whether you see someone on television leaving a church on Sunday morning, as we often saw Bill and Hillary.  Look and see what their actions are, how they conduct their lives.  Thomas Jefferson is said to have been a Diest.  Who would make a better leader; T.J. or Bill C.?

 

[strathyboy]

How bad does a president have to act before they're not considered Christian? Should they be held to a higher standard than any normal person?

JFK had an affair. FDR had the most open affair we've seen in a president, often taking his mistress to social functions. Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ, and Nixon all lied to the American people regarding Vietnam and other "black ops", as revealed in the Pentagon Papers. Are all of these presidents then non-Christian?

 

[TC]

I never thought of JFK, LBJ or FDR as Christians, simply because I did not see it in their actions.  I'm not saying that they weren't saved, don't get me wrong.  I'm just inspecting the fruit on the tree.

 

"Black-ops" in the Vietnam War.  Sir, that wasn't the only thing lied about back in those days.  Lies, subversion and international shell games were the rule of the day.  To lie to them, they had to lie to us.  It would seem that the lies are so easily spoken by politicians nowadays, they'd rather climb a tree to lie than stand on the ground and tell the truth.

 

If you want to compare presidents, how about Ronnie?  He's the one most conservatives see as the best president ever, but what evidence was there that he was a Christian?  We've already acknowledged that coming out of a church does not make you a Christian, so did he ever publicly declare Christ as his personal savior?  I know his wife was into astrology, and was counselled by seers, does this mean Ronnie is guilty by association?  I don't know.

 

The bible says that God has given free will to all of us, but He reserves the right to pull the strings of the politicians.  Remember Ramsees?  Everytime time he started to release the Jews, God hardened his heart.  Whoever we place in office, he won't thwart God's plan.  The question is only what part of the plan will we be?  Egypt was used to reveal the awesome power and glory of God to the Jews, but it certainly wasn't beneficial to Egypt, huh?

 

[strathyboy]

Ronnie was also involved in that whole Iran-Contra thing.

My point was just to question how the designation of "Christian" or "non-Christian" president was arrived at. Just about every president has done some questionable things, or approved some questionable policies while in office, so it's possible to believe that no president had been Christian. I like to have concrete definitions for things like this. It makes debate easier.

 

[TC]

I agree. 

However, since we can't know what's in a man's heart, we have to go by actions.  Since Christians aren't perfect, but forgiven because of their personal savior's sacrifice.  That doesn't mean that they can't err, come to wrong conclusions, or just be plain ol' stupid.   King David proved that Godly leaders can have a lapse in judgement.  Sin clouds the thought process; living in sin hardens the heart and makes it even worse.

I've known many people who would tell you that they are "Christian", even though they had not the first clue who Christ was, other than that dude hanging on the crucifix.  They figured they were Christian because they figured there is a God, and since they live in America, that makes them Christian. 

 

So, how is the "christian" president identified?  By his actions, I'd say.  How do we vote for a Christian man who is running for president?  I should say, how do we know that the man we want to vote for is a Christian and not a fake?  Gee, I guess that puts us in the same boat as the anti-Christian types.  Remember how Clinton was going to be the savior of the homosexuals, and then pretty much forgot all about them?  They felt very betrayed.  How many times have you voted for someone who made all the Christian Conservative noises, and then turned out to be a milktoast politician like most others?

 

Does it seem that the deck is stacked against anyone making a difference in D.C.?

 

[Thunderchild]

Politically oriented newspaper articles are usually about 25% reporting, 25% reporters opinion and 50% telling you what your opinion of the events should be.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Susan
Perhaps, but NOT with my support.
Besides we HAVE had non-Christian presidents before. maybe not OPENLY non-Christian, but I can tell you that not all our presidents have necessarily been Christians.

I certainly can't think of any.  Perhaps you could be more specific, but I suspect what you will come up with is some shameful judgementalism.

Actually had the 2000 Democratic ticket been reversed with Lieberman for President and Gore for V.P. I believe they would've won.  Lieberman's piety is less offensive than that of Christian Right types because as an Orthodox Jew he has a vested interest in separation of church and state that such as Ralph Reed do not possess.  Obviously, though, too, Lieberman's being a Jew obviously hurt the ticket in places like Tennessee.

Someone mentioned "atheism" being an unacceptable attribute for most of a Presidential candidate like being female and queer but I would say more so.  Of all 535 members of Congress, there's about two listed in THE ALMANAC OF AMERICAN POLITICS as having "no religious affiliation".  One is Tammy Baldwin, a leftist lesbian from Madison, Wisconsin, or "Berkeley East";  the other is a Puerto Rican from the Bronx.  You can bet, though, that just as Baldwin doesn't attack the dairy industry, her other non-religious colleague doesn't attack Catholics in his district, either.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
We had Bill Clinton for eight years. While he regularly waved his Bible in the air while coming out of church on Sunday, he was certainly the most non-Christian (or, perhaps better stated, anti-Christian) president I can remember. Even his public displays of his "faith" wreaked with hypocrisy.

Shame.  What a terrible sentiment and such judgementalism.

Clinton was far from perfect and that's just the point.  We all fall short.  In his policies he was fair and prudent;  he did regretful things in his personal life as have we all.  Someone asked him once (probably right after the Monica Lewinsky story was revealed by Linda Tripp) about his churchgoing and if it wasn't hypocritical given he was a fornicator of sorts.  His response was something like:  where else should a sinner like me be?

 

[Texas Lynn]

I actually think we will have a female President in my lifetime (I'm 26) and probably a queer one, too.  Given the rigors of the Presidency (Bill Bradley quoted Woodrow Wilson as saying the President should be chosen from the small pool of intellectual athletes that included himself and Wilson) a wealthy gay man with no children like former Ambassador to Luxembourg James Hormel would make an excellent President. 

 

[lithium.]

I don't see why it matters what you believe. If you are someone that is good for the country then I will vote for you. I don't care if you are a Christian, Atheist, Muslims, etc... As long as you want to help America I think if you are going to judge someone based on what they believe then you are judging your self.

There have been a few presidents that were not Christian. If I can remember right Abraham Lincoln wasn't a Christian. I don't know if he believed in any other god, but I don't think he was a Christian.

 

[Chuck_Darwin]

of course Jimmy Cartewr was the most devout born again christain to ever hold the office. most christians(conservative) still didn't like him much.

As a side note this discussion, the US Constitution stricly forbids religious test for public office. here is the relavent bit from article 6:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

 

[billhabing]

What makes you think Pres. Bush is a Christian?

 

[billhabing]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
We had Bill Clinton for eight years. While he regularly waved his Bible in the air while coming out of church on Sunday, he was certainly the most non-Christian (or, perhaps better stated, anti-Christian) president I can remember. Even his public displays of his "faith" wreaked with hypocrisy.

Bill CLinton was more Christian than many, Just as in the case of Jimmy Carter you will see later. He lived some real Christian stuff.

Like Jesus, I have never heard him attack those who attacked him. When asked if it was time to get even with repuplicans when they gooffed he replied, something like, he who has been forgiven must forgive.

I don't know if you know who Anthony Campolo is, but I have heard that he ministered to the Clintons as they went through it.

Campolo is a very radical follower of Jesus.

Clinton never quit, he kept his eye on the goal and never stoped.

Remeber that Jesus was accused of the same things you find Bill guilty of.

 

[billhabing]

Originally posted by TheBear
People like you never cease to amaze me. There have been almost 100 independent recounts of the votes, from all sides of the issue, with every imaginable scenario played out, and ALL point to Bush as the legitimate winner of the election.



John

You most likley heard that on TV

 

[Evangelion]

A non-Christian president would be the best thing in America since sliced bread and literacy.

Oh, wait...

OK.

Since sliced bread, then.

 

[Blindfaith]

Bill CLinton was more Christian than many, Just as in the case of Jimmy Carter you will see later. He lived some real Christian stuff.

Oh reeeaalllyyy....So you know Bill Clinton personally to be able to say he's as strong a Christian as Jimmy Carter?  Huh.  Interesting.

I think that any candidate who says they're a Christian could be voted in to office.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they are.  A lot of people say we're a Christian nation.  I don't necessarily believe that.  It's eays to say; lip service is too easy for many, but we who claim to be Christian need to walk the walk. 

I'd never vote a Muslim into the Presidency.  I have nothing against the people of this faith personally, but the Muslim faith is not what this country was founded on.  George Washington a Muslim?  I just can't see it.

If Hillary Clinton runs, there's no way in Hades will I vote for her.  If another woman ran, who was highly qualified and I agreed with her ideals and agenda, I'd vote for her.  I wouldn't vote for an atheist.

 

[Rae]

Nope. This country was founded by Deists like Thomas Paine and Jefferson. So we should only elect Deists.

Hey, I'd be willing to vote for anyone of any religious affiliation who I believed was best for the job.

 

[lithium.]

Maybe I will run for President that would be fun. Will everyone here vote for me.