Non Trinitarianism in Adventism

[Wgw]

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...len-g-white-etc.7922647/page-20#post-69017322

In this thread, I was surprised by the lengths certain Adventist members were prepared to go to to defend the writings of Ellen G. White in the face of all available evidence from the legitimate accusation of historical error.

I was rather more surprised when it emerged these works were refarded as inspired prophecy.

I was astonished when these members refused to answer whether or not they agreed with doctrine of the Holy Trinity as described by the Nicene Creed, even when the question was couched in terms that should have been broadly acceptable to those who make the creedal statement "No creed but Christ" (there was an amusing video from Lutheran Satire showing how such statements are in fact creeds, but I digress).

As a general rule, I do not have discussions in GT with chaps whose adherence to Nicea I cannot be sure of. What is more, I have read of Arianism and semi-Arianism being not uncommon within the Adventist and Millerite movement.

Now on the website of the SDA church is a statement which seems to indicate acceptance on a denominational level of the idea of the Nicene Creed. I accept this and value this as an important article of faith for the SDA church.

Thus, the purpose of this thread is to examine whether or not this position reflects the historic consensus in the Adventist community and the theology of Ellen G. White, and also to allow the discussion of the accuracy of the historical claims made by Ellen G. White to continue to be discussed. Lastly, whereas the accuracy of her prophecy was never intended to be the subject of the other thread, I feel it is worth an analysis in this forum, where it can be done so without reference to the strictures imposed by the General Theology SOP.

I invite @Pickle , @BobRyan , @mmksparbud and my learned friend @MoreCoffee to join me in this continuing discussion.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Do you know that there were some folks (including adventists) who believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

 

[Wgw]

Do you know that there were some folks (including adventists) who believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

I wasn't aware that was an Adventist doctrine; I knew the Mormons believed it, and the Mormons and Adventists do share similiar origins in the "burned over district" of New York, so I can't say I'm completely shocked.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I wasn't aware that was an Adventist doctrine; I knew the Mormons believed it, and the Mormons and Adventists do share similiar origins in the "burned over district" of New York, so I can't say I'm completely shocked.

They got it from the same source that the JWs got it from along with the Sabbath thing I think. No, the Mormons don't believe Jesus is Michael at all, they believe Lucifer and Jesus are brothers but have no mention of Michael, but in a sense I guess that it is possible that they could conclude similarly.

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...len-g-white-etc.7922647/page-20#post-69017322

In this thread, I was surprised by the lengths certain Adventist members were prepared to go to to defend the writings of Ellen G. White in the face of all available evidence from the legitimate accusation of historical error.

I was rather more surprised when it emerged rhese works were refarded as inspired prophecy.

I was astonished when these members refused to answer whether or not they agreed with doctrine of the Holy Trinity as described by the Nicene Creed, .

Nonsense fiction such as the above requires two things.
1. The one reading - will not read the actual doctrinal statements of the SDA denomination.
2. The one posting - assumes no one is reading the material. and the link provided in the OP is NOT to the source material for what SDAs believe -- big "hint" for the reader.

Both assumptions are false.

so the first step in debunking it - is to provide the actual link to SDA beliefs.

https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

This thread starts off making false statements about "Belief #2" in that list.

3
28 Fundamental
Beliefs

Belief #2 - Trinity

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing,above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1
Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

As for "what Ellen White believed" --

Well she was raise as a Unite Methodist - until the age of 17.
She published her views on the subject of the Trinity stating that the "Holy Spirit is the third PERSON of the Godhead" -

As for what the actual beliefs of SDAs are on this subject.


3. Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

Ranting against a given denomination where false accusations and name calling etc are to be the prime forms of "evidence" - requires that we ignore the actual source documents that state what the denomination actually believes.

Observing the degree to which this particular thread follows that model rigidly - is left "As a simple exercise for the reader"

Thus in real life - this is not a debate about the doctrine of the Trinity as the source documents show -- rather as the OP demonstrates this is a debate about the usefulness of false accusations against the SDA denomination.

 

[mmksparbud]

Good grief--you were answered. I said I never heard of the Nicene Creed till I came on here and had no idea what it meant. No one refused to answer. There is a difference between can't answer and won't. Since coming on here and reading it, I haven't seen anything that I, or any other SDA would have a problem with-that I know of. This forum considers us as Christian. I consider myself as Christian and don't care what anyone else labels us as--like I've said many times--Christians were called that long before any Nicene Creed existed.

(Act 11:26) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

No, the Morons

I'm not sure whether that statement is a typo or a Freudian slip!

 

[Wgw]

Nonsense fiction such as the above requires two things.
1. The one reading - will not read the actual doctrinal statements of the SDA denomination.
2. The one posting - assumes no one is reading the material. and the link provided in the OP is NOT to the source material for what SDAs believe -- big "hint" for the reader.

Both assumptions are false.

so the first step in debunking it - is to provide the actual link to SDA beliefs.

https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

This thread starts off making false statements about "Belief #2" in that list.

3
28 Fundamental
Beliefs

Belief #2 - Trinity

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing,above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1
Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

As for "what Ellen White believed" --

Well she was raise as a Unite Methodist - until the age of 17.
She published her views on the subject of the Trinity stating that the "Holy Spirit is the third PERSON of the Godhead" -

As for what the actual beliefs of SDAs are on this subject.


3. Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

On this point, I have set out in the OP that I recognize on a denominational level that th SDA is Nicene. The raison d'etre of this thread is to explore the influence of non-Nicene perspectives in the broader Millerite and Adventist community before and during the time of Ellen G. White.

 

[Wgw]

They got it from the same source that the JWs got it from along with the Sabbath thing I think. No, the Mormons don't believe Jesus is Michael at all, they believe Lucifer and Jesus are brothers but have no mention of Michael, but in a sense I guess that it is possible that they could conclude similarly.

Ah, you are right; they believe Michael is Adam.

 

[BobRyan]

Thus in real life - this is not a debate about the doctrine of the Trinity as the source documents show -- rather as the OP demonstrates this is a debate about the usefulness of false accusations against the SDA denomination.

Let's illustrate that with yet another false accusation - no reference at all to the source documents - just pure fiction

Ah, you are right; they believe Michael is Adam.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'm not sure whether that statement is a typo or a Freudian slip!

It was a typo that I didn't get fixed before you quoted me

 

[mmksparbud]

I wasn't aware that was an Adventist doctrine; I knew the Mormons believed it, and the Mormons and Adventists do share similiar origins in the "burned over district" of New York, so I can't say I'm completely shocked.

Well, though this is off topic--I am certainly interested in seeing how you arrive at this. And just what is "the burned over district" of New York?! Never heard of that. But I was born in Costa Rica and have never been in New York--nor have I read of any such similarities in our books or theirs.

 

[BobRyan]

Thus in real life - this is not a debate about the doctrine of the Trinity as the source documents show -- rather as the OP demonstrates this is a debate about the usefulness of false accusations against the SDA denomination.

On this point, I have set out in the OP that I recognize on a denominational level that th SDA is Nicene. The raison d'etre of this thread is to explore the influence of non-Nicene perspectives in the broader Millerite and Adventist community before and during the time of Ellen G. White.

Ellen White - (Ellen Harmon ) was a trinitarian - United Methodist.
Miller was a trinitarian Baptist

Your efforts to prove my claim that this thread is not at all about SDAs having an anti-Trinitarian doctrine but rather is about the usefulness of false accusations - piled on top of each other in some cases - made against the SDA denomination - seems to be demonstrated in triplicate so far.

how "instructive".

 

[Wgw]

Now, here is an interesting article on semi-Arian dissidents active in the SDA church in recent years: http://www.atsjats.org/publication_file.php?pub_id=240&journal=1&type=pdf

It pleases me to note that on a denominational level the SDA does object to this. However, I find the rationale given for the semi-Arianism by the dissidents to be interesting to consider.

 

[Wgw]

This article is interesting in that it suggests that (to her great credit), Ellen G. White played a pivotal role in the Adventist rejection of non-Trinitarianism:

http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/mischarges/arianism/

 

[BobRyan]

I was astonished when these members refused to answer whether or not they agreed with doctrine of the Holy Trinity as described by the Nicene Creed, ...

I invite @Pickle , @BobRyan , @mmksparbud and my learned friend @MoreCoffee to join me in this continuing discussion.

Another false accusation?

I don't recall you ever asking me about the Trinity and then you getting a "refused to answer" or "refused to agree with the doctrine of the Trinity" from me.

Maybe you got it from MoreCoffee...

 

[mmksparbud]

Now, I have been very curious about something--and don't know if this would require another thread. But I am interested to know what doctrines we have, that other denominations do not have, that are found only in the writings of EGW. I am saying that there are doctrines that other denominations share with us, but do not need to debate those as you can't blame EGW for other faiths who have the same believes. And I mean other than the health message, which is a whole other can of worms that can end up dominating the whole thing--we can get back to that. Though, even there, others share some of those, too.

 

[BobRyan]

I wasn't aware that was an Adventist doctrine; I knew the Mormons believed it, and the Mormons and Adventists do share similiar origins in the "burned over district" of New York, so I can't say I'm completely shocked.

I have no idea what you are talking about ... stories?? fictions??

 

[Wgw]

Another false accusation?

I don't recall you ever asking me about the Trinity and then you getting a "refused to answer" or "refused to agree with the doctrine of the Trinity" from me.

Maybe you got it from MoreCoffee...

Note that no accusations have been made in this thread, nor do I wish to imply any accusations. The reticence of some members to affirm the Nicene Creed, combined with the suggestion of @mmksparbud of the desirability of a discussion on CT terms (if I read her correctly) prompted me to open this thread.

It is my belief by the way that, strictly speaking, being a Nicene Christian should entail positive confession of the Nicene Creed in a liturgical context. However, I recognize this is not a universal practice and am prepared to recognize, with an eye towards ecumenical reconciliation, doctrinal affirmation or assent on a denominational level, even where this regrettably does not translate to the actual recitation of the creed in worship services.

 

[mmksparbud]

This article is interesting in that it suggests that (to her great credit), Ellen G. White played a pivotal role in the Adventist rejection of non-Trinitarianism:

http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/mischarges/arianism/

Well, now you know more about it than I do!

 

[Wgw]

Now, I have been very curious about something--and don't know if this would require another thread. But I am interested to know what doctrines we have, that other denominations do not have, that are found only in the writings of EGW. I am saying that there are doctrines that other denominations share with us, but do not need to debate those as you can't blame EGW for other faiths who have the same believes. And I mean other than the health message, which is a whole other can of worms that can end up dominating the whole thing--we can get back to that. Though, even there, others share some of those, too.

On this point, I am not aware of anyone else who shares the specific doctrine of a investigative judgment proceeding from a secret second coming.