Non-Socialist Countries

[Willtor]

A point has been made, a number of times, that countries like Norway, Sweden, and Germany aren't actually socialist. I've been calling them socialist because they call themselves socialist, but ostensibly this is incorrect. Unfortunately, whenever anyone who makes this point gets called on it, they don't have a word for what these countries are. This begins to sound like a poorly-thought-out talking point.

But maybe I'm wrong. What is the system these countries have called?

 

[JackRT]

They are constitutional democracies whose recent governments have adopted socialist policies.

 

[High Fidelity]

They are constitutional democracies whose recent governments have adopted socialist policies.

Indeed which can be said for, well, most countries.

 

[Albion]

A point has been made, a number of times, that countries like Norway, Sweden, and Germany aren't actually socialist. I've been calling them socialist because they call themselves socialist, but ostensibly this is incorrect. Unfortunately, whenever anyone who makes this point gets called on it, they don't have a word for what these countries are.

Perhaps you just haven't been paying adequate attention.

Around here, the admirers of Marxism try earnestly to convince us that any country which has even one "socialist policy" is an example of a Socialist country. That's a way of making some pretty normal countries appear to be Socialist societies. But for those of us who are alert to it, them having to do that amounts to conceding that actual Socialism isn't attractive.

 

[JackRT]

Indeed which can be said for, well, most countries.

Quite true, but some far more than others. Most democratic nations seem to be moving toward the left.

 

[Albion]

Quite true, but some far more than others. Most democratic nations seem to be moving toward the left.

In Latin America and Europe it's reported that they are moving to the Right.

 

[RDKirk]

Perhaps you just haven't been paying adequate attention.

Around here, the admirers of Marxism try earnestly to convince us that any country which has even one "socialist policy" is an example of a Socialist country. That's a way of making some pretty normal countries appear to be Socialist societies. But for those of us who are alert to it, them having to do that amounts to conceding that actual Socialism isn't attractive.

Umm, I see Marxophobes doing that a whole more often.

 

[Albion]

Umm, I see Marxophobes doing that a whole more often.

Now that's an interesting term. Did you just make that up?

 

[JackRT]

In Latin America and Europe it's reported that they are moving to the Right.

Democracy seems to be an endangered species in much of that area.

 

[High Fidelity]

But for those of us who are alert to it, them having to do that amounts to conceding that actual Socialism isn't attractive.

No 'ism' in its absolute form is attractive. That's why most countries are an amalgamation of elements.

In Latin America and Europe it's reported that they are moving to the Right.

Socially, perhaps. Economically, I don't see that. Socially things are veering to the right here in Europe and I think the migrant crisis made it more pronounced than before. Nationalism is certainly on the rise in some countries and particularly those with more exposure to the crisis.

 

[RDKirk]

Quite true, but some far more than others. Most democratic nations seem to be moving toward the left.

In Latin America and Europe it's reported that they are moving to the Right.

And that's why the "left-right" political spectrum is inadequate for intelligent discussion of politics in any more than one country at a time, and requires defining the term for each country it's used even when used in discussion of one country at a time.

 

[Albion]

Democracy seems to be an endangered species in much of that area.

Whatever. Your claim about "most" Democratic nations moving to the Left has been exploded.

 

[Albion]

Socially, perhaps. Economically, I don't see that.

In Latin America, there's definitely a retreat from the failed policies of the Leftwing parties.

 

[JackRT]

Whatever. Your claim about "most" Democratic nations moving to the Left has been exploded.

Perhaps, in your mind.

 

[Larniavc]

A lot of people seem to hear the word 'socialism' and then immediately think 'communism' and then start thinking about Stalin and re education camps and purges and snow and vodka and starvation and requisition orders and anything beyond that requires too much thinking.

 

[Willtor]

Perhaps you just haven't been paying adequate attention.

Around here, the admirers of Marxism try earnestly to convince us that any country which has even one "socialist policy" is an example of a Socialist country. That's a way of making some pretty normal countries appear to be Socialist societies. But for those of us who are alert to it, them having to do that amounts to conceding that actual Socialism isn't attractive.

So, no term besides socialism? Okay. I'll go with "socialist," until there's an alternative.

 

[Albion]

Perhaps, in your mind.

Sure. And for those others who can't bear to face the facts, I would expect them to continue on in denial.

 

[RDKirk]

Now that's an interesting term. Did you just make that up?

Yes. This is not to say that Marx was not horribly wrong, but as ophidiophobes are not only fearful of snakes but also snippets of rope that someone calls a "snake," "Marxophobes" are not only (justifiably) fearful of Marxism but also anything anyone calls "Marxist."

 

[RDKirk]

A point has been made, a number of times, that countries like Norway, Sweden, and Germany aren't actually socialist. I've been calling them socialist because they call themselves socialist, but ostensibly this is incorrect. Unfortunately, whenever anyone who makes this point gets called on it, they don't have a word for what these countries are. This begins to sound like a poorly-thought-out talking point.

But maybe I'm wrong. What is the system these countries have called?

The term for them is "social democracy," which has about as much to do with socialism as "democratic socialist" has to do with democracy.

Ain't words a hoot?

 

[Albion]

A lot of people seem to hear the word 'socialism' and then immediately think 'communism' and then start thinking about Stalin and re education camps and purges and snow and vodka and starvation and requisition orders and anything beyond that requires too much thinking.

A lot of people think Socialism is so great that they have to pretend that most of what Communism does would never happen in a "Socialist" country. Until it does. Then they expect that everyone--the victims and the perpetrators alike-will wring their hands and act like it's a national tragedy that they ALL are responsible for.