Non-Religious Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage (4)

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sidhe

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Is it just me, or have the past few pages actually upped the usual level of discourse in this part of the forum?


Admin Note - This thread has been edited. You can find the previous portion of the thread here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7378347/
 
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Shane Roach

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I don't see a deterioration, though, I see an expansion to include new ideas of what a family is.

Growing up, from the time I was five on, my family was me, my mom, and my big sister due to divorce. My mom never remarried. That, at the time of Zimmerman's writing, would've been a sign of the deterioration of the family. However, I grew up not dealing with an alcoholic dad (now he's been sober for over 20 years, and we go to the gun range together) and probably had a better childhood for it.

My thing with gender is that I don't see why it matters what gender the folks in a relationship are, as long as they love one another and any children involved, whether by adoption or birth.

I will cede that some folks see it as a deterioration.

I hear what you're saying and comprehend. Indeed, some pages ago I admitted to agreeing that Christianity contributed to the fall of Rome and gave a short dissertation not unlike your own above. However, I think we all know what has been going on in this thread for 2000 posts and more now. I will pose the question one more time, alone, so it is not passed over.

Can we as a group here stop arguing that marriage and family are not entirely distinct from child bearing and rearing?
 
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Shane Roach

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Bigotry is fairly simple to understand. It usually accompanies discrimination based on sex, race, etc. Such people wish to discriminate. This has nothing to do with my opinions or who disagrees with me.

Well let me just put it this way then, and you can correct me where I am wrong, and perhaps ignore a bit of hyperbole that I fully admit I am about to engage in.

I think what you mean by bigot is me, personally, and you'd about as soon shoot me as give me the time of day, and I have no idea then why you would deign to speak to me at all.

Is there anything you really want to know from me, or are you just expressing your disgust that people like me still pollute the earth?
 
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Joachim

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The will of the people is against it. Thousands of years of human tradition are against. Science itself says that homosexuality is an abnormal condition within humanity. Why should we equate it on the same level as heterosexual marriage which has the practical reason of being the method of legitimization for naturally concieved children. Homosexual couples cannot naturally concieve a child. I might can buy that we should give them some limited partnership rights. I can't buy that we should give them the same marriage as straight people and call it by the same name
 
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sidhe

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I hear what you're saying and comprehend. Indeed, some pages ago I admitted to agreeing that Christianity contributed to the fall of Rome and gave a short dissertation not unlike your own above. However, I think we all know what has been going on in this thread for 2000 posts and more now. I will pose the question one more time, alone, so it is not passed over.

Can we as a group here stop arguing that marriage and family are not entirely distinct from child bearing and rearing?

They're not necessarily distinct, though they can be. Legal marriage can exist without children, for the protection of the adult members involved. I've got a friend who married when her and her bf bought a house, so that she legally had some claim to it should the relationship end. Otherwise, it was his income that was getting them the mortgage, and only his name could be on it. If they broke up in those circumstances, she'd be out of a place to live with no legal recourse. They both work, and have no plans for kids. If it wasn't distinct from child-bearing and rearing under any circumstances, the fact of adoption would still preclude the banning of same-sex marriage, but that there are times where it is distinct even for male/female couples.

Are two people in a committed, loving relationship not a family in and of themselves I think is the operative question.
 
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Braunwyn

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Well let me just put it this way then, and you can correct me where I am wrong, and perhaps ignore a bit of hyperbole that I fully admit I am about to engage in.

I think what you mean by bigot is me, personally, and you'd about as soon shoot me as give me the time of day, and I have no idea then why you would deign to speak to me at all.
Shoot you? lol. That's pretty dramatic. Whether you do or intend to discriminate based on sex, race, orientation, etc in your life is something I couldn't possibly know. On that end, it's not personal. The positions you have presented thus far may contain the sentiment of discrimination and if that's the case, than I most certainly have interest in responding to the posts. We can make it about you, if you like, but I would need more information.

Is there anything you really want to know from me, or are you just expressing your disgust that people like me still pollute the earth?
Geeze louise. I'm just not one of the folk that gives a *high five* to those that like to have sex and produce offspring. What can I say? I don't find it terribly impressive, nor do I think it deserves special praise. I'm also not keen on entitlement attitudes but it doesn't involve disgust. I tend to get disgusted when it comes to violence but this conversation hasn't touched upon violence, so no disgust thus far.
 
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Braunwyn

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The will of the people is against it. Thousands of years of human tradition are against. Science itself says that homosexuality is an abnormal condition within humanity.
Science itself says so, eh? I must have missed that memo as well.

Why should we equate it on the same level as heterosexual marriage which has the practical reason of being the method of legitimization for naturally concieved children. Homosexual couples cannot naturally concieve a child. I might can buy that we should give them some limited partnership rights. I can't buy that we should give them the same marriage as straight people and call it by the same name
Names aside, homosexuals should not have to subsidize heterosexuals that choose to reproduce. I just cannot grasp that position..."we'll take your property taxes to fund our schools for our children"..."we'll take your income taxes to fund our lifestyles"...but "you don't deserve the dollars you earn because of our desire to discriminate". How petty and childish a position.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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TO sidhe,
Then take your criticism up with the writer of the article Polycarp_fan posted. :)
The thing is that the articles you guys use are not anything more than opinion. When using an article to prove an assertion is HAS TO BE one that is a peer reviewed paper published in the proper journal so that others in the same field of study have a chance to prove it either correct or incorrect, if that is not done then the article is worthless as anything more that fluff or opinion.

I can write an article about anything I want and publish it online or in magazine but it would just be opinion but if I use empirical data and research to write an article that is published in a scientific journal related to the individual discipline and others take that data and verify that it does in fact lead to the same consclusions it is accepted as valid.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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This isn't anything not known.
A writer using personal opinion does not a valid paper make. Try finding a peer reviewed scientific journal that agrees or it is nothing more than someones biased and invalid personal opinion.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Can we as a group here stop arguing that marriage and family are not entirely distinct from child bearing and rearing?
Is anyone actually arguing this? It is trivially false that the matters are "entirely distinct." The more relevant question is whether one entails or necessitates the other.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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Wow.......

That is exactly what has been said, shown, proven and patted down tight by me and others. You buried this little treasure of a sentence in the midst of a post that almost looked as if you had finally admitted the fact.

Marriage, its benefits and its obligations all center around circumstances specific to child rearing, right down to divorce, child custody, alimony, child support and division of assets. Frankly, a smart homosexual would avoid marriage like the plague, as there is no legitimate reason for two gay lovers to split assets 50/50. In a regular marriage, the woman is going to have to sacrifice a lot of time and effort at the very least having the children, and in many, probably still most cases, sacrifices career opportunities to raise the kids, thus whatever incomes they may both have, 50/50 splits are only fair.

For homosexuals, if one makes 100k a year and the other 35k, and they're never going to have a child, and neither of them is biologically stuck with the trials and tribulations of carrying a child to term, why in the world would any homosexual agree to this sort of contract?

The contract is not meant for them, obviously. The only interest here is tearing up the concept of the family. Again, I give you Marx and Engel.

Please let's move this discussion along. Everyone is already bored and exasperated with the tedious word games trying to pretend you do not know why people associate marriage with heterosexuals and child bearing. It's a done deal, whether you realize it or not.
I know many gay couples that one has given up work to raise kids, so yes it is indeed about kids for them, that you fail to acknowledge that is irrelevant since ultimately the courts will. Will they have any effect on my marriage when I get married NO and those that think they will are part of the tin foil hat wearing brigade that is so common on the extreme right side of the aisle.

The fact that your side thinks in such simplistic terms as who can have their own child or not is not only ridiculous but also shows that as a whole your side will always be stuck in the shallow end of the pool and most likely the shallow end of the gene pool.
 
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Joachim

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Science now says that homosexuality is a result of genetics. If 90% of the population is heterosexual and only 10% of the population has the code to encode homosexuality then by default one state is normal and one state is abnormal. It is a very logical statement. If 90% of the population do something then it is normal for that population. If only 10% of a population do something then that 10% are deviating from the norm.

As for public schools if you are going to use that argument then I shouldn't have to pay taxes either. I have spent my entire life in the Catholic schools. Graduate school will probably be the first time I enter a publically funded institution (and even saying this, I find that I am applying to several Catholic grad schools)

My children will be going to Catholic school. I would prefer not to pay for public school and I would prefer to get a tax credit for the tuition that I will be paying for my children to attend school. I know however that switching to a system where we don't have public school would have a negative effect on society.

I never said that I want to take away gay tax money. I have no problem with homosexuals. We have a gay pride parade downtown every year and we actually have some gay mystic societies. I have no problem with them getting basic inheritance and visitation rights. I have a problem with that being called marriage and I have a problem with them getting full adoption rights. Before you even ask, I do actually believe we need to tighten divorce laws because I believe too many people get divorced thinking about themselves and not about their families welfare. I personally am against no-fault divorce as well
 
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OphidiaPhile

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Sorry Jane the Bane, I see little advantage in giving more sources, none seem accepted by the other side.
But you guys fail to grasp what a peer reviewed journal is.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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OK, let's say that the AMA's original thesis that homosexuality is a mental disorder was correct.

<snip>
"Dr. Robert L. Spitzer was the psychiatrist who led the charge to remove homosexuality as a disorder from the psychiatric manual in 1973. Spitzer is a self identified secular humanist atheist Jew who has been consistent in his support of gay rights. Briefly, Spitzer conducted a study of 200 people who reported that they had changed from homosexual to heterosexual. Spitzer found that 66% of the men and 44% of the women who had participated in therapy to change their homosexual orientation had arrived at what he called 'good heterosexual functioning.' Additionally, 89% of the men and 95% of the women reported that they were bothered slightly or not at all, by unwanted homosexual feelings. In Spitzer's own words: "Like most psychiatrists I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that's untrue-some people can and do change.' Spitzer concluded that the changes occurred not just in behavior but in core features of sexual orientation."Robert L. Spitzer, "Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results-Some Gays Can Change (Encino, California: National Association For Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, May 9, 2001); Robert L. Spitzer, "Can some gay men and lesbians change their sexual orientation? 200 Participants reporting a change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation," Archives of Sexual Behavior 32 (2003), 403-417.
</snip>

Now, if that's the case, we're not doing any same sex couples any favor by allowing them to marry. It's like if you know someone who believes the CIA is spying on them by drilling a little tiny hole over their bed while they sleep, so every night they move their bed. You can tell the person thet they have every right to think that, even though you choose not to. You can even help them move their bed every night...but you're not helping them get better. All you're doing is saying their abberant behavior is normal.
The APA has not stated it was a mental illness since 1972, nice try at spin but it is quite shameful.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Science now says that homosexuality is a result of genetics.
No.
If 90% of the population is heterosexual and only 10% of the population has the code to encode homosexuality then by default one state is normal and one state is abnormal. It is a very logical statement. If 90% of the population do something then it is normal for that population. If only 10% of a population do something then that 10% are deviating from the norm.
I suggest you get to work petitioning school desk manufacturers to stop accommodating the 7-10% of southpaws that constitute a blight on our otherwise immaculately right-handed society.

Anyway, if homosexuality is indeed entirely genetic, how does social stigma make any sense?
 
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Joachim

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No.

I suggest you get to work petitioning school desk manufacturers to stop accommodating the 7-10% of southpaws that constitute a blight on our otherwise immaculately right-handed society.

Anyway, if homosexuality is indeed entirely genetic, how does social stigma make any sense?

For the same reason that we stigmatize the schizophrenic. If you are going to argue that it is not genetic, then in effect you are making the same argument that religiously motivated opponents make. You are making the argument that there could be some choice involved and that it could be a lifestyle choice. I choose to believe that the predisposition is genetic but like any other genetic trait or any trait within the human body you can treat it chemically.


81% of voters in the state voted for the constitutional ban on gay marriage. 73% of residents of the county voted for it. That number drops to around 60% in the city proper but that is still a majority. It is clearly the will of the public that gay marriage not be allowed at this time. That is one of the best arguments I can make for why you should not force it's legalization.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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Could someone please pm me the link to the study that compares hetero couples to homosexual couples? It occurs to me that I have seen this claim repeatedly that the research is there, but am not familiar with any specific study that has done this comparison yet. The one I posted that is in PDF form claims to have on some level, but does not. Are there any specific studies that pit the gay family and the nuclear family against one another across a broad spectrum of measurable points?

I mean, you can post it here if you like, but the thread seems to go for several pages at a time between visits, so it would be easier for me if it were pm'd.




http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/341

The small and nonrepresentative samples studied and the relatively young age of most of the children suggest some reserve. However, the weight of evidence gathered during several decades using diverse samples and methodologies is persuasive in demonstrating that there is no systematic difference between gay and nongay parents in emotional health, parenting skills, and attitudes toward parenting. No data have pointed to any risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with 1 or more gay parents. Some among the vast variety of family forms, histories, and relationships may prove more conducive to healthy psychosexual and emotional development than others.
Research exploring the diversity of parental relationships among gay and lesbian parents is just beginning. Children whose parents divorce (regardless of sexual orientation) are better adjusted when their parents have high self-esteem, maintain a responsible and amicable relationship, and are currently living with a partner.22,31 Children living with divorced lesbian mothers have better outcomes when they learn about their mother’s homosexuality at a younger age, when their fathers and other important adults accept their mother’s lesbian identity, and perhaps when they have contact with other children of lesbians and gay men.22,24 Parents and children have better outcomes when the daunting tasks of parenting are shared, and children seem to benefit from arrangements in which lesbian parents divide child care and other household tasks in an egalitarian manner28 as well as when conflict between partners is low. Although gay and lesbian parents may not, despite their best efforts, be able to protect their children fully from the effects of stigmatization and discrimination, parents’ sexual orientation is not a variable that, in itself, predicts their ability to provide a home environment that supports children’s development.




Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health
Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents
ABSTRACT. Children who are born to or adopted by 1 member of a same-sex couple deserve the
security of 2 legally recognized parents. Therefore, the American Academy of Pediatrics supports
legislative and legal efforts to provide the possibility of adoption of the child by the second parent
or coparent in these families.

On the basis of the acknowledged desirability that children have and maintain a continuing relationship
with 2 loving and supportive parents, the Academy recommends that pediatricians do the following:
•

Be familiar with professional literature regarding gay and lesbian parents and their children.
•
Support the right of every child and family to the financial, psychologic, and legal security that
results from having legally recognized parents who are committed to each other and to the welfare
of their children.
•
Advocate for initiatives that establish permanency through coparent or second-parent adoption for
children of same-sex partners through the judicial system, legislation, and community education.
COMMITTEE ON PSYCHOSOCIAL ASPECTS OF CHILD AND FAMILY HEALTH, 2000-
2001
Joseph F. Hagan, Jr, MD, Chairperson
William L. Coleman, MD
Jane M. Foy, MD
Edward Goldson, MD
Barbara J. Howard, MD
Ana Navarro, MD
J. Lane Tanner, MD
Hyman C. Tolmas, MD


http://www.cga.ct.gov/jud/old/SameSexMarriage/AmAcPed-Report.pdf



[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Oct.12, 2005 (Washington) -- Children growing up in same-sex parental households do not necessarily have differences in self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional problems from children growing up in heterosexual parent homes.
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"There are a lot of children with at least one gay or lesbian parent," says Ellen C. Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She revealed the findings at the American Academy of Pediatrics Conference and Exhibition.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."[/FONT]
Study Results

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Researchers looked at information gleaned from 15 studies on more than 500 children, evaluating possible stigma, teasing and social isolation, adjustment and self-esteem, opposite gender role models, sexual orientation, and strengths.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Studies from 1981 to 1994, including 260 children reared by either heterosexual mothers or same-sex mothers after divorce, found no differences in intelligence, type or prevalence of psychiatric disorders, self-esteem, well-being, peer relationships, couple relationships, or parental stress.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Some studies showed that single heterosexual parents' children have more difficulties than children who have parents of the same sex," Perrin says. "They did better in discipline, self-esteem, and had less psychosocial difficulties at home and at school."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Another study of 37 children of 27 divorced lesbian mothers and a similar number of children of heterosexual mothers found no differences in behavior, adjustment, gender identity, and peer relationships.[/FONT]
Equitable Division of Chores

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Two other large studies involving more than 100 couples found that same-sex parents also had contact with extended family, had social support, and had a more equitable division of labor in the home.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Lesbian couples share household responsibilities and chores more equitably," Perrin says. "And, the children of lesbian couples are less aggressive, more nurturing to peers, more tolerant of diversity, and more inclined to play with both boy's and girl's toys.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Children seem to adjust better when there is a more equal division of labor in the home and the parental relationship with the children had a higher rating, she says.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]The combined data presented by Perrin showed that children whose parents are lesbian have no more problems than the rest of the children and actually may be more tolerant of differences, she says. There was suggestive evidence that there were more stresses due to the gender of same-sex parents, but the children also reported greater well-being, more nurturing, and a greater tolerance for differences.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]What is striking is that there are very consistent findings in these studies," Perrin says.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ryan Malone, who works in public relations in Washington, D.C., says after his parents were divorced he was reared by two "lesbian moms," while still staying in contact with his father.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"We lived in a small town," he says. "While I was open about my family, I didn't broadcast it."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]At times he felt isolated because he didn't know any other families at the time headed by a same-sex couple, Malone says. "My parents overparented because they felt like the whole world was watching."[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]While further study should be done, this is important for pediatricians to know so they can learn more about variations in families and give appropriate advice in optimizing the child's development, Perrin says.
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Carol Berkowitz, MD, former president of AAP, says this analysis is important in that it combines evidence-based studies.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"This subject evokes a lot of emotions," she says. "Some of the studies on this subject in the past have been weighted and biased, based on nothing more than the researcher's views."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Evidence-based studies are important in helping pediatricians in their practices and creating policy for the future, she says.[/FONT]
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