Non-Christians: What would you have done?

[toolmanjantzi]

Sure, why reward bad behavior? There are other charities that you could give to, if that is what you want to do.

No, and yes.

eudaimonia,

Mark

So your belief there should be no reward for bad behaviour. How do you measure bad behaviour?

 

[Eudaimonist]

So your belief there should be no reward for bad behaviour. How do you measure bad behaviour?

Do you mean in general?

According to an ethical standard based on the requirements of human life. Since I take a virtue ethics perspective, I usually break the issue down in terms of specific virtues.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Since I could have been in the same situation, here's my reply...



Being an unbeliever doesn't mean that one doesn't have a moral compass. It would bother me to lie in many circumstances not only because of the lesson of the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf (ponder that), but also because I value my character, which I see as necessary to my personal flourishing and happiness, and because I understand intellectually and emotionally that other people are just as much persons as I am with their own dreams and well-being to pursue. This is natural for any reasonably aware individual.

So why is it not OK for that man to pursue, is he less of a person? his pursuit of your happiness at the same time of collecting donations, somehow has changed your initial thoughts of "their own dreams and well-being to pursue".

You're right. I don't care about "sin", because "sin" is defined as something along the lines of disobedience to God or missing the target God sets for us. I'm a "true unbeliever" -- someone for whom disobedience to God is as meaningful as disobedience to Odin -- and so I don't care about "sin".

Why is "Sin" or "God" brought into this? Because the OP said they were a Christian, but it had as much bearing on the answer to the OP as did their "Unbelief" did for their choice to lie and ask for justification from peers. Not sure why it should matter to you if your a "True Unbeliever"; therefore your answer would be different.

However, I do care about vice. Vice is a kind of clumbsiness at living life. The good values that I manage to get from life depend on wisdom and virtue.

I'm a human being. I don't need to be told to care. Do you?

Then why ask? Be all YOU ARE.

eudaimonia,

Mark[/QUOTE]

 

[Eudaimonist]

So why is it not OK for that man to pursue, is he less of a person? his pursuit of your happiness at the same time of collecting donations, somehow has changed your initial thoughts of "their own dreams and well-being to pursue".

One's happiness is something that one can pursue either skillfully or clumbsily. I support both his moral and political right to pursue his happiness, but that doesn't mean that he is being skillful in that particular situation.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eyes wide Open]

That's what I don't understand either. Why is the OPs unbelief or past belief have any bearing on the decision of lying to someone, based on their belief that she was worthy of being shown how to believe. Why is it a cause for justification by peers if there is no belief?

I don't follow your line of reasoning, unless of course I'm missing something. The OP was presented with an uncomfortable situation by virtue of being 'hassled' by somebody collecting donations for a charity. The op's belief or non belief is irrelevant to the collector. I don't see the lie thing as being set in stone like you do, (perhaps) I mean the op's intention could have been to not make the collector feel uncomfortable, but at the same time the OP didn't 'feel' like donating anymore, which is why my initial words were not to dwell on it and go with the flow, which is what they did.
The collector is 'responsible' in that situation to collect donations and the OP was happy to do that despite their tight financial situation. I see this as a credit to their outlook and also I see their non donation as a credit to their self respect. The OP knew dam well that the collector was out of line, that was the 'vibe' that came across and the OP reacted accordingly. Yes they may feel that they still should of given despite this, or that they could have verbalised the situation differently to the collector, but that's their call.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

I don't follow your line of reasoning, unless of course I'm missing something. The OP was presented with an uncomfortable situation by virtue of being 'hassled' by somebody collecting donations for a charity. The op's belief or non belief is irrelevant to the collector. I don't see the lie thing as being set in stone like you do, (perhaps) I mean the op's intention could have been to not make the collector feel uncomfortable, but at the same time the OP didn't 'feel' like donating anymore, which is why my initial words were not to dwell on it and go with the flow, which is what they did.
The collector is 'responsible' in that situation to collect donations and the OP was happy to do that despite their tight financial situation. I see this as a credit to their outlook and also I see their non donation as a credit to their self respect. The OP knew dam well that the collector was out of line, that was the 'vibe' that came across and the OP reacted accordingly. Yes they may feel that they still should of given despite this, or that they could have verbalised the situation differently to the collector, but that's their call.

So really her credibility is what she is seeking from her peers? She requires her peers to let her know her choices have no bearing on her credibility, and that she has actually gained credibility by her choices.

 

[LoAmmi]

So really her credibility is what she is seeking from her peers? She requires her peers to let her know her choices have no bearing on her credibility, and that she has actually gained credibility by her choices.

There were two questions in the post.

Would you have given to the seemingly noble charity, even if the person representing them was trying to convert you? Would it have put you off too?

This is what is being asked in this thread. Nothing to do with justifying a lie, nothing to do with the person being allowed to collect, nothing to do with credibility. You are inventing a different purpose behind the thread.

 

[simplegifts]

I had a bit of an ethical dilemma over the weekend. I don't have anything wrong with what I did, but I'm curious what others would have done.

So I was coming out of Wal-Mart (bigger ethical dilemma? lol I didn't buy anything!) and this guy asks me if I want to donate to his charity. It was a Christian ministry that helps people get off of drugs and lead a clean life. Even though religion isn't my "thing" I can see how that would help a lot of people, so I proceeded to take out whatever cash I had.

Then he starts asking me if I'm a Christian, to which I said I used to be... Then he launches into some talk about how I'm in luck and can convert back again today, then hands me a standard tract. I was suddenly put off by the whole thing, and really didn't agree with what he was trying to do. I told him that I'd be back later (a lie, but I'm terrible at getting out of weird social situations) because I didn't have a lot of money. He asked me why I changed my mind, because I was about to give. I could have just said he was putting me off, but I really just wanted to get out of there. So I said that I really needed to pay off some bills first (this is a tacky thing to say, but it's totally true. I'm a starving college student and every little bit helps me.) He finally let me go and I went on my way.

Even though the charity was to help other people, I just couldn't bring myself to give to someone who was proselytizing to me. I felt it was disrespectful as I'm quite happy as a nonbeliever. I still believe in the cause, but maybe I could research other charities when I'm in a better place to give. I know I can do whatever I want with my money, but...

Would you have given to the seemingly noble charity, even if the person representing them was trying to convert you? Would it have put you off too?

Sorry I am not a non-christian but even as a Christian I would not donate to him.

I have a set answer because I want to make sure these guys are legitimate. I say - "Sorry these days people usually only carry plastic [shrug my shoulders and look sheeepish] (which is actually true in my case!). Do you have a business card or website? I might be able to make a donation from home."

My cover will be blown once eveyone is carrying Square!!!

 

[BruceDLimber]

For Baha'is this is a simple decision:

Both begging and giving to beggars are explicitly forbidden in the Baha'i Faith.

And there are already plenty of charitable agencies around (such as soup kitchens), some of them even run by Baha'is, for those who need them!

So end of story.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[LoAmmi]

Both begging and giving to beggars are explicitly forbidden in the Baha'i Faith.

Would you be allowed to give food or something else to a beggar? I've had people outside of a drug store ask me for aspirin or something like that and I feel compelled to help people who are in need and have a specific request like that.

 

[Supreme]

I don't usually donate to street charities like that, and would be less inclined if they tried to convert me to a different religion. However, to me, a religion is made attractive by its followers. If I can see someone trying to do good for charity without an ulterior motive, then I'm far more likely to have a good impression of that religion.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

So really her credibility is what she is seeking from her peers? She requires her peers to let her know her choices have no bearing on her credibility, and that she has actually gained credibility by her choices.

I don't think credibility was the desire, the desire was to know what others would have done under similar circumstances. It's a simple request and a simple answer, mine was to move away ASAP. You know the guy thought the money was in the bag.....why not slip in a little preaching!! A simple thankyou would have sufficed.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

I only donate to charities that I know have an established, transparent financial record and a mission I agree with.

This.

It's already a given that the mission be one that I support, but unfortunately so many lack transparent financial records (and I have across a charity that used to use part of the donations for first class tickets, suites in 5-star hotels, etc. for the events related to charity).

 

[FreeSpirit74]

If it had been me in the OP's position, I would have looked the guy straight in the eye and asked him what his true intent was in being out there in front of Walmart - was it to raise money for the charity, or was that only a blind in order to give him an excuse to proselytize? I also would have told him "sorry, Mac, but I hold my own spiritual beliefs that are specific to me and my life experience (FYI the concept of "what is your intent?" is a big part of that), and I am quite secure in them, thank you very much."

 

[SithDoughnut]

Would you have given to the seemingly noble charity, even if the person representing them was trying to convert you? Would it have put you off too?

I've seen a few people around who have done the same thing. I didn't know the charities very well, and personally I don't really trust someone claiming to be collecting on behalf of a charity but trying to convert everyone who comes near them. Would the money go to help people or convert them? I don't give money nearly as much as I probably should, but when I do I only donate to charities that I know.

I say that if you are put off, don't give to them. Give to a charity you know or trust, or even simply donate to the charity you were going to give to, but not through that man. I doesn't matter how you donate, after all.

 

[Zoness]

This.

It's already a given that the mission be one that I support, but unfortunately so many lack transparent financial records (and I have across a charity that used to use part of the donations for first class tickets, suites in 5-star hotels, etc. for the events related to charity).

Yeah, which is the exact reason I am so picky. I am generally against charity because its abuse potential is much higher than forms of personal giving but there are some good ones out there that I personally support.

 

[Mythunderstood]

You mentioned you lied. But at the same time you enjoy being a unbeliever. Why would it bother you to lie? Also, why are you so put off by not giving. If your so happy without believing in anything, why would anyone care wether you thought you believed in something before? It's very confusing, most true unbelievers could care less about sin, but you go asking people for justification of your wrong doing. Are you still a Christian and your faking your unbelief? If you were truly a believer ever then how is it you think your not now?

just trying to understand, why you care at all?

Just out of curiosity, would you ask this question of someone who is Hindu?

 

[dlamberth]

Would you have given to the seemingly noble charity, even if the person representing them was trying to convert you? Would it have put you off too?

I tend to not give to Christian charities though there is a local Catholic Church who feeds the homeless that I'll donate to. The reason why I don't give to most Christian charities is because they do have a proselytizing agenda attached to their programs. The Catholic Church that I give to doesn't. They truly want to help those in need. Helping those in need IS their agenda.

.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Just out of curiosity, would you ask this question of someone who is Hindu?

No. She said she was enjoying being a believer of nothing, so that is why I asked.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

I tend to not give to Christian charities though there is a local Catholic Church who feeds the homeless that I'll donate to. The reason why I don't give to most Christian charities is because they do have a proselytizing agenda attached to their programs. The Catholic Church that I give to doesn't. They truly want to help those in need. Helping those in need IS their agenda.

.

So your against Christianity but for Catholics. That is the most truthful yet absurd thing I have ever heard.

You basically said I will not support the use of gun powder just gun clubs.