NON-Christian link site has me doubting

[Ir0nClad]

Sorry True Q, but I don't want to lead anyone down that road, so I won't be giving you the site name. I have prayed on this for a week and the holy spirit gave me the inspiration to seek out truely good sites and the people that contribute to them.

I mistakenly thought that I could fight for GOD using the same artillery they use. But what I now know is that I sank to their level and became as evil as they are.

I am having doubts of belief about God's gift of free will to man. Here are some point of arguement giving me problems (these points are directly quoted from a member of the site):

1) Free will is inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly just creator. Having created your past, present and future, and without the capacity resist the will of the omnipotent, there is no free will.

If, OTOH, you wish to stipulate that you can make your own choices regarding good and evil -- consider the following:

Imagine that everyone in the world suddenly "get's it" and drops in synchonous lockstep with "God's Will(TM)" (and thus tossing back this "gift" of free will) -- surely all that **** in Revelations will not then occur? Right? Otherwise where's the perfect justice?

But then that would mean that God's prediction of the future was wrong -- there goes omniscience.

Also, having stymied the Revelations excuse for exterminating most of humanity illustrates the possibility of resisting the will of God (as expresseed by the creation of a future where most of God's children(TM) have gone bad), thus tossing omnipotent out too.

2) This "gift" business. The "gift" of free will is not much of a gift if you are compelled to give it back by subordinating your will to God in exchange for not being tossed into a firey lake to burn for eternity. If someone offered me such a gift, Ii would tell him "no thanks".

To reply to that persons quote from your mystery source:

1. This argument is flawed. Think of it in terms of a programmer. God is the architect and we are the design/program.

Every programmer, when first starting out, learns to "hard code" certain values. This provides very little use of ANY program. For example, if I want to write a medical program that shows your name, ID, and how much you owe to the hospital, I could simply type out your name, ID, and how much you owe.

That's not a problem if it is just for you, or maybe 10-100 people, but what if there are 10,000 people that owe money to the hospital? Hardcoding 10,000 "nodes" with repeating data is a BIG waste of time.

The solution is to create a "dynamic" system, in which you could set up the base structure and have the reoccuring data change with each individual client/individual.

In other words, God has put out a path for our lives, we are the data, and depending on what we want, we choose our own path whether or not it is Gods best for our life.

You could then make the argument that we, or "the data" as I've called it, are 'hardcoded' as well since God made us, but why would He do that just to have a system that He cannot benefit from?

If your not a programmer or don't think in terms of computers, think of it this way... Water in a river will eventually make it to the ocean. Now you can take a few droplets and move it forwards or backwards and it will still make it to the ocean (Fate, predetermination, the inconsistencies with God that this user made in argument #1). However, not all water goes to the ocean, some of it can be dragged out by bathing suits, drunk up by an animal, or any other number of conditions leading to a different end other than the ocean that wasn't directly affected by the original plan.

Of course, then again, you could say that a God, or fate, is inconsistent with free will because all of the "choices" we have were predetermined. Then I ask, why would an omnisious being, who says He desires a relationship with us (christian view), 'hardcode' our reactions? If I want love from someone, and I force someone to give it to me by my will, it is fake.

Love is a gift from one being to another, and that is what God wants from us. If we are hardcoded to give or not give him love, what is that?


Argument 2:

I don't submit my will to God becuase I am afraid of being tossed into a burning pit of fire. I submit my will to God because I know He has my best interests at heart (for real, I can private message my personal story as testamony) and I never go wrong with a decision I include God with.

Argument 2 is based on the fear, not love, which is the flaw in argument number 1.

 

[BarbB]

Sorry newlamb-I edited the above post and I won't make that mistake again.

Cool - welcome to CF, btw!

I hope the responses above are helping you. They're from the best of the best.

 

[slippedhole]

This forum thread has really put my heart at ease. The other site had me doubting my journey to Christ.

Thanks to everyone who posted and may god grant you an extra blessing tonight.

 

[Ir0nClad]

This forum thread has really put my heart at ease. The other site had me doubting my journey to Christ.

Thanks to everyone who posted and may god grant you an extra blessing tonight.

No problem.

 

[dmiller]

NON-Christian link site has me doubting

The first two words of your post should give you a clue!! Non-Christian = Non-factor. Don't give them a second thought. Hang on to what you know to be right.

Praying for ya!!!!

 

[dmiller]

posted by IrOnClad:
If your not a programmer or don't think in terms of computers, think of it this way... Water in a river will eventually make it to the ocean. Now you can take a few droplets and move it forwards or backwards and it will still make it to the ocean (Fate, predetermination, the inconsistencies with God that this user made in argument #1). However, not all water goes to the ocean, some of it can be dragged out by bathing suits, drunk up by an animal, or any other number of conditions leading to a different end other than the ocean that wasn't directly affected by the original plan.

Of course, then again, you could say that a God, or fate, is inconsistent with free will because all of the "choices" we have were predetermined. Then I ask, why would an omnisious being, who says He desires a relationship with us (christian view), 'hardcode' our reactions? If I want love from someone, and I force someone to give it to me by my will, it is fake.

Love is a gift from one being to another, and that is what God wants from us. If we are hardcoded to give or not give him love, what is that?

I like the way you think. But just suppose that God had a pretty good idea that certain drops of water would be absorbed by a swimming suit, (even though they were following the law of gravity - on their way to the sea), but He had no "choice" in said swimmer's decision to go swimming that day?

Makes sense to me. He set the law of gravity in motion, and water (among other things) follows that rule. It is not a rule set in motion by the Father as to whether or not we go swimming. That is left up to our choice, thus the possibility of the drops of water being deterred from their "final destination", is something that happened that was not planned.

Same with our lives. We are given free will, and though God (being God) has a pretty good idea (read: almost 100% positive) of what we are going to do, it is still up to us to decide.

Adam had the same choice as we do today, either to sin, or not. I believe God gave him (Adam) the choice, and crossed His fingers hoping for the best. (just kidding)!!

I've heard it taught that Jesus Christ was the 2nd Adam -- God was His Father also, and He had the same choice to sin, just as Adam did. Yet Jesus never bowed to the pressure to do so.

Makes me think that God really did give free will. and it is/was up to His creation to decide on how they were going to act on it.

 

[KidDitto]

I got an e-mail from a friend who said in his opinion some X-JW's had invaded their Christian forums with some God rejecting. Not only did they bash them at that site, but they took posts and brought them to a particular board and made fun of them.

Best thing is just to stay off of those sites.
And pray

I feel bad for the XJW's looking for Christ as well, I hope God will lead them here or somewhere they can hear about Jesus in a kind and loving manner.

 

[dmiller]

posted by KidDitto:
I got an e-mail from a friend who said the X-JW's had invaded their Christian forums with God rejecting. Not only did they bash them at that site, but they took posts and brought them to a particular XJW board and made fun of them.

That wouldn't be the GreaseSpot Cafe, would it?

That did happen over there.

 

[KidDitto]

E-mail didn't say. Just asked for prayer for all parties. It was from my brother's friend actually. But if they need prayer I will pray for them as well.

I never checked it out as I did not want to be sucked into anything negative. I figured prayer was the best thing to do. For anyone so hurt they would reject God and prayer for anyone who was hurt by the rejection.

If it is a Christian site it might be. I guess that is not as important as praying for all of them though.

 

[nb_christseeker]

just imagine Jesus hanging there bleeding on the cross, he who had committed no sins, heaving every breath. ask yourself - why did this happen? ask him, why are you hanging there? he'll say "because I love you" and/or "because I obey my Father". these are one in the same though. if christianity isn't right, then Jesus suffered and died for nothing, which would make me want to vomit.

 

[BloodyBowels]

If you want to judge lets judge, but at least do me the honor of defending this site on which i pour much of MY heart and soul. A few of you have seen this site i come from that slipped hole has referenced. You, I will talk to about it. The rest of you should visit it before forming an opinion. If you care to see it I will give the link, although I'm sure my post will be removed as I'm sure this one will be for no real reason.

 

[Sketcher]

I am having doubts of belief about God's gift of free will to man. Here are some point of arguement giving me problems (these points are directly quoted from a member of the site):

1) Free will is inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly just creator. Having created your past, present and future, and without the capacity resist the will of the omnipotent, there is no free will.

God gave you the hand you've been dealt, so what? It's still your choice how you play it. Unless he determins that YOU WILL play the king of diamonds, I see no problem. I don't know if He micromanages our actions like that, or simply watches them like I would watch a puppy to keep him out of trouble. Whether He chooses to use all His power to do something or let a few things slide I don't know. But He does watch everything and can jump in when He needs to.

If, OTOH, you wish to stipulate that you can make your own choices regarding good and evil -- consider the following:

Imagine that everyone in the world suddenly "get's it" and drops in synchonous lockstep with "God's Will(TM)" (and thus tossing back this "gift" of free will) -- surely all that **** in Revelations will not then occur? Right? Otherwise where's the perfect justice?

But that won't happen. Not because God won't let it happen, either. He'd love to not destroy and judge, but we freely sin, so He has to. Seeing the future and controlling every aspect of it are two seperate things, remember.

2) This "gift" business. The "gift" of free will is not much of a gift if you are compelled to give it back by subordinating your will to God in exchange for not being tossed into a firey lake to burn for eternity. If someone offered me such a gift, Ii would tell him "no thanks".

Freely choosing to love and obey God is such a bad thing? This argument neglects the severity and the existence of sin entirely. God is offering us a way out of what we've earned for ourselves. If we choose to love Him and obey Him, we will repent of our sins. And He graciously forgives us. That is an excellent deal considering how offensive one sin is to God. I don't know about you, but I sin hundreds of times a day. I like this deal.

 

[dasielady]

I have to agree with Svt4him.
The idea of "God's will" does not mean that every little thing that happens is planned by him and that that is the only way it can go. God gives the choice of Good or Evil. God knows what is in our hearts. God knows where we will end up. But the bible also says that God gives Satan permission to tempt us. Would it then mean that it is God's will that we give in to temptation? NO! It is his will that we have a choice to make. It is his will that certain choices are or are-not presented in our lives. It is his will that certain things inevitably happen.

Thus... His will and free choice do not contradict each other.

 

[LegomasterJC]

I've been on forums like that. One recently whose admin is the son of a practicing witch and non practicing "christian" They didn't have me doubting about my beliefs at all. I'm not phazed by that sort of thing... They just got annoyed with my trying to tell them about God and banned me for good. I never even spammed. Oh well.
For you, I suggest not going to that site again until you are firm in your beliefs. Spend your internet time here and more of your time in the word and talking to God.

 

[InTheFlame]

About all I can add to what's been said (and this HAS been said I think, just not as clearly as I'd like) - Sit down, read your bible, read some books about christianity (Max Lucado books are a great start), do some praying - TALK to God and learn about him and the path you've chosen. Make sure it makes sense to you. Don't stop until you can answer, in your heart at least, all the questions a non-christian might ask of you. Know WHY you believe what you've chosen to believe. This is a big task and to do it completely will take your entire life... but a basic understanding and confidence in your beliefs will be invaluable for you. God bless.

 

[BloodBowel]

I've been on forums like that. One recently whose admin is the son of a practicing witch and non practicing "christian" They didn't have me doubting about my beliefs at all. I'm not phazed by that sort of thing... They just got annoyed with my trying to tell them about God and banned me for good. I never even spammed. Oh well.
For you, I suggest not going to that site again until you are firm in your beliefs. Spend your internet time here and more of your time in the word and talking to God.

The same thing happened to me here and all I wanted to do was discuss this topic with the users here. I didn't spam or advertise the site in question and I was banned in about 3 minutes. Everyone that reads this remember it cause I bet I will be banned again and this post removed also before anyone can actually discuss anything here.

 

[MethodistChristian]

Please stop banning me, I have broken no rules and I am a christian.

 

[OldShepherd]

Please stop banning me, I have broken no rules and I am a christian.

You are being banned this time because you admit being banned. If you are banned you cannot post on this forum under any name. You are also being banned this time for registering with a false email address. If you are a Christian as you claim why are you using a false email address?

Since you email is false I cannot contact you privately. Click on the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page, tell us what name(s) you were using when you were banned and it will be explained to to you.

 

[ChristianMethodist]

You are being banned this time because you admit being banned. If you are banned you cannot post on this forum under any name.

I can use proxies and sign up for accounts again and again if you are just going to continue to refuse to even hear me out.

You are also being banned this time for registering with a false email address. If you are a Christian as you claim why are you using a false email address?

I use a fake email because I hate spam. Everysite I sign up to sends me junk mail or sells my address and I have no reason to belive this site won't either.

Since you email is false I cannot contact you privately. Click on the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page, tell us what name(s) you were using when you were banned and it will be explained to to you.

Why would you just automatically determine that someone is not good enough to post on this site? It's very judgemental and not what a REAL christian would do to someone else.

 

[LegomasterJC]

I haven't gotten any spam from this site. It is a Christian site and promises not to give out your email. If you show trust to them, they show trust to you. It's part of the policy to give them a real email address. What's wrong with giving them a separate email account that is still yours. I have two email accounts... don't get anything on one but you should register rightly and obey the rules.