I have been lead astray by evil and I need some fellow believers to help me back. I went on a website that has a bunch of diffrent news links, forums, and journals. It was really innocent curiousity. After a while I got to understand that the "community" there was really evil. But sadly, instead of staying away I tried to engage them in discussion about God and they have me doubting my beliefs. I need some guidence.
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NON-Christian link site has me doubting
- Thread starter slippedhole
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Without intending to sound terrifically sinister. Can I have the address?
Also, keep your chin up, I'm sure some christians will be along shortly to help you out.
Also, keep your chin up, I'm sure some christians will be along shortly to help you out.
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Sorry True Q, but I don't want to lead anyone down that road, so I won't be giving you the site name. I have prayed on this for a week and the holy spirit gave me the inspiration to seek out truely good sites and the people that contribute to them.
I mistakenly thought that I could fight for GOD using the same artillery they use. But what I now know is that I sank to their level and became as evil as they are.
I am having doubts of belief about God's gift of free will to man. Here are some point of arguement giving me problems (these points are directly quoted from a member of the site):
1) Free will is inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly just creator. Having created your past, present and future, and without the capacity resist the will of the omnipotent, there is no free will.
If, OTOH, you wish to stipulate that you can make your own choices regarding good and evil -- consider the following:
Imagine that everyone in the world suddenly "get's it" and drops in synchonous lockstep with "God's Will(TM)" (and thus tossing back this "gift" of free will) -- surely all that **** in Revelations will not then occur? Right? Otherwise where's the perfect justice?
But then that would mean that God's prediction of the future was wrong -- there goes omniscience.
Also, having stymied the Revelations excuse for exterminating most of humanity illustrates the possibility of resisting the will of God (as expresseed by the creation of a future where most of God's children(TM) have gone bad), thus tossing omnipotent out too.
2) This "gift" business. The "gift" of free will is not much of a gift if you are compelled to give it back by subordinating your will to God in exchange for not being tossed into a firey lake to burn for eternity. If someone offered me such a gift, Ii would tell him "no thanks".
I mistakenly thought that I could fight for GOD using the same artillery they use. But what I now know is that I sank to their level and became as evil as they are.
I am having doubts of belief about God's gift of free will to man. Here are some point of arguement giving me problems (these points are directly quoted from a member of the site):
1) Free will is inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly just creator. Having created your past, present and future, and without the capacity resist the will of the omnipotent, there is no free will.
If, OTOH, you wish to stipulate that you can make your own choices regarding good and evil -- consider the following:
Imagine that everyone in the world suddenly "get's it" and drops in synchonous lockstep with "God's Will(TM)" (and thus tossing back this "gift" of free will) -- surely all that **** in Revelations will not then occur? Right? Otherwise where's the perfect justice?
But then that would mean that God's prediction of the future was wrong -- there goes omniscience.
Also, having stymied the Revelations excuse for exterminating most of humanity illustrates the possibility of resisting the will of God (as expresseed by the creation of a future where most of God's children(TM) have gone bad), thus tossing omnipotent out too.
2) This "gift" business. The "gift" of free will is not much of a gift if you are compelled to give it back by subordinating your will to God in exchange for not being tossed into a firey lake to burn for eternity. If someone offered me such a gift, Ii would tell him "no thanks".
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i for one congratulate you for having found other venues of thinking. it is in your free will to venture out and think for yourself outside the realm you are comfortable in. it is enlightening for one to think not for yourself amongst others who think just like you, but to dwell amongst those who challenge your thinking. it's very human.
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You ought to read some of these posts heathen chemistry. I would quote some of it, but with the exception of what slipped posted, it's pretty much all colorful swearing. On the whole, they seem to be mainly jackasses, not so much evil though, of course, I have some lax views on that. Don't sweat it slipped, my opinion is that they didn't take kindly to being missionaried (people rarely do) and respond with every ounce of vitriol they could muster.
Kudos though, listening to people who are not just opposed, but violently opposed, to your beliefs is an admirable thing, especially if you don't dismiss what they say out of hand though, in this case, you probably should have.
Kudos though, listening to people who are not just opposed, but violently opposed, to your beliefs is an admirable thing, especially if you don't dismiss what they say out of hand though, in this case, you probably should have.
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- Oct 23, 2003
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If you are going down the road, and you come to a fork in it, and you turn right, I know where you'll end up. If you turn left, I also know where you'll end up. Because I know where you end up, doesn't mean I make you turn either way, nor does it mean you don't have the choice. God may know where you'll end up, but the choices you make are still yours. You may choose to lie, you may choose not to. Now trying to describe how God can know all is a bit hard, but free will and knowing what will or will not happen are not exclusive. Where it would be is if you wanted to turn right, but God made you turn left because that was His will, and I don't see it working like that.
You are not to give it back in exchange for not being roasted, and anyone who would say 'no thanks' if it is pretty stupid, IMO. Repentance is a realization that our sin is against God. When I met God, I was sorry for my sins because I had a revelation of His holiness and the grossness of my sin, so my repentance was because I knew I sinned against God. If my wife wrongs me, I don't expect her to say sorry because of something I'll give her after she does, I would hope she'd say sorry because she wronged me.
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heathen chemesrty-Thanks for the site referal and for helping me think of my situation in a more positive light.
TrueQ- You must have did a search on my nickname to find the site. It probably would be helpful to see the forum thread I am talking about but I am not going to promote that site.
This rasies a question for me as well. Is it important to "know" ones enemy intamatly in order to defeat it? I thought I could fight this evil with their own "artilliery" but I found I had soon become as evil acting as they. In order to defeat an enemy, do you have to succom to the level of warfare they fight with? I still don't know. Maybe my will in GOD was not strong enough to withstand the barage of attacks and temptaion they were throwing my way. BUT I have used this all as a great learning experience and it has taught me alot about myself. I AM stronger with God now because of it.
TrueQ- You must have did a search on my nickname to find the site. It probably would be helpful to see the forum thread I am talking about but I am not going to promote that site.
This rasies a question for me as well. Is it important to "know" ones enemy intamatly in order to defeat it? I thought I could fight this evil with their own "artilliery" but I found I had soon become as evil acting as they. In order to defeat an enemy, do you have to succom to the level of warfare they fight with? I still don't know. Maybe my will in GOD was not strong enough to withstand the barage of attacks and temptaion they were throwing my way. BUT I have used this all as a great learning experience and it has taught me alot about myself. I AM stronger with God now because of it.
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Svt4Him- Thanks for the interesting point of view. It is truely wondeful to hear a perpsective on living a life of loving free of expectation of love in return. This, if mastered, could truely be an unconditional exsistance beyond earthly knowing. I will aspire not to act only in reagards to what it can "get me.
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TheMainException
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If you need to PM me some questions about your faith that have you doubting..go ahead...I'd be interested in helping a fellow Christian...don't run from questions...that can lead you further from God, instead, embrace them and strive to answer them...this will help tremendously.
Okay...with this free will thing...how would you like to be a robot and do everything like everybody else...with free will it gives the world some different ways to do things...everybody thinks differently and has different ideas, all to make the world either better or worse...
Okay...with this free will thing...how would you like to be a robot and do everything like everybody else...with free will it gives the world some different ways to do things...everybody thinks differently and has different ideas, all to make the world either better or worse...
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people aren't enemies if they think differently from you. keep that fallacy out of your head.
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The site the OP mentions seems to me to be a site of immature kids. People just posting to get a reaction and upset you. What is important is that God gave all of us, no matter who it is, a gift of salvation. It is our choice to receive it or reject it. If you don't receive it then you are rejecting it. Its free and it is eternal, and it is out of love for us.
God Bless
God Bless
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cyberwing
Blessed beyond the curse!
Slipped hole,
First of all, you are trying as you said to fight the enemy using his ways. That will never, EVER work. Go to The Father to learn what HE has to say about these things. We must be very careful of falling into the trap the enemy lays for us to step over into pride. Pride in our faith, pride in our intellect, our humility and pride about our new found understanding. These are easy to fall into and will trap you when you play the enemies game, his way. The first thing the enemy will always hit you with is "...it is foolish and stupid to believe in God, only the ignorant believe in God."
(I fell for this claptrap when in university~ then found out what a load of claptrap I had learned in university!!!)
Well, go to the Word and see what God has to say about this. HE created the universe, I tend to think HE has the last say in most things.
HE says that "...they have become so wise in their own eyes they become as fools and HE laughs them to derision." I didn't say that, God did. Read it for yourself.
Slippedhole, what you need to do is just what you have said, come back into the fellowship of believers and renew your weary spirit. Stay away from the negative and renew your spirit by the still waters. Let the Living Water fill you up. I heard a magnificent man of God once say that we all to often get a small channel of living water going then we try to go out and minister. That channel gets dried up quickly because you don't have enough DEPTH yet. We need to become RESEVOIRS of this Living Water constantly having the inflow of His Spirit before we begin to pour out upon others in high concentrations... That made so much sense to me. We must learn to keep the Holy Spirits counsel inflowing as we minister to others so that we don't become dried up and lacking ourselves.
I suggest you pull back away from these people for a while. Ask God to bless them but know that it is not YOUR JOB to save anyone. Never was and never CAN be. The only thing JESUS has asked us to do is to be witnesses of what HE has done for us personally. To lift up the broken-hearted and help all that we can but always, ALWAYS we are commanded to do these things with LOVE. If we find ourselves getting angry, hurt or upset we need to back off because Paul told us anything we do without love in our hearts is in vain.
When you can love these people and reach out to them LOVING them, then perhaps HE will send you back but never EVER go where HE has not directed you to... it's a great way to get the stuffings kicked out of yourself!!! Wait upon the Lord and go where HE sends you.
's and more 's I'm so proud you tried to help them but remember it is not our call. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves as the Word says.
Come, return to the Living Water, rest in the green pastures, bask in the glorious Presence of Our Lord Jesus and be refreshed! Place these people you care about into God's hands, ask HIM to touch them, bless them and then be at peace.
Your Sister in Christ's Love,
~Cyberwing
First of all, you are trying as you said to fight the enemy using his ways. That will never, EVER work. Go to The Father to learn what HE has to say about these things. We must be very careful of falling into the trap the enemy lays for us to step over into pride. Pride in our faith, pride in our intellect, our humility and pride about our new found understanding. These are easy to fall into and will trap you when you play the enemies game, his way. The first thing the enemy will always hit you with is "...it is foolish and stupid to believe in God, only the ignorant believe in God."
Well, go to the Word and see what God has to say about this. HE created the universe, I tend to think HE has the last say in most things.
HE says that "...they have become so wise in their own eyes they become as fools and HE laughs them to derision." I didn't say that, God did. Read it for yourself.
Slippedhole, what you need to do is just what you have said, come back into the fellowship of believers and renew your weary spirit. Stay away from the negative and renew your spirit by the still waters. Let the Living Water fill you up. I heard a magnificent man of God once say that we all to often get a small channel of living water going then we try to go out and minister. That channel gets dried up quickly because you don't have enough DEPTH yet. We need to become RESEVOIRS of this Living Water constantly having the inflow of His Spirit before we begin to pour out upon others in high concentrations... That made so much sense to me. We must learn to keep the Holy Spirits counsel inflowing as we minister to others so that we don't become dried up and lacking ourselves.
I suggest you pull back away from these people for a while. Ask God to bless them but know that it is not YOUR JOB to save anyone. Never was and never CAN be. The only thing JESUS has asked us to do is to be witnesses of what HE has done for us personally. To lift up the broken-hearted and help all that we can but always, ALWAYS we are commanded to do these things with LOVE. If we find ourselves getting angry, hurt or upset we need to back off because Paul told us anything we do without love in our hearts is in vain.
When you can love these people and reach out to them LOVING them, then perhaps HE will send you back but never EVER go where HE has not directed you to... it's a great way to get the stuffings kicked out of yourself!!! Wait upon the Lord and go where HE sends you.
's and more 's I'm so proud you tried to help them but remember it is not our call. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves as the Word says. Come, return to the Living Water, rest in the green pastures, bask in the glorious Presence of Our Lord Jesus and be refreshed! Place these people you care about into God's hands, ask HIM to touch them, bless them and then be at peace.
Your Sister in Christ's Love,
~Cyberwing
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CJ.23
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Hey mate, these questions are philosophical ones which have troubled people for centuries. I personally love this sort of argument, and can debate them for hours, but lets put it another way - you are intellectually honest enough to be able to question your faith, which is to be respected, but I think you should take things slow and see how it goes. Questions like this can become quite technical: you are not trained in epistemology as far as i know. Can you drive a car? You might not understand how the ignition works, or why the engine performs as it does, etc etc, but if it gets you from A to B then that'll do for now. Perhaps you are an expert in biology or amaster craftsman or something. My honest answer is, don't weorry about thes ethings, just keep being honest with yourself, be content God loves you, and relaise that Atheists and Agnostics re very sensible and loving people who want answers to the same questions that trouble you, and stay friends with them. All the disciples doubted did they not, even Peter?
If you want me to explain a few classic (and some heretical) Christian responses to those questions I will though.
You sound like an honest questioning chap. I hope you find joy and peace, whatever faith you end up with. God bless
cj x
If you want me to explain a few classic (and some heretical) Christian responses to those questions I will though.
You sound like an honest questioning chap. I hope you find joy and peace, whatever faith you end up with. God bless
cj x
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
Because God can manuver interdimensionally and stand outside of time does not mean that He cannot intervene against the will of man beyond the choice of chosing Him. He knows the past and the future, but only intervenes for the good of those that love Him. If God intervenes in the life of the wicked and hardens a heart, it is for the good of those that He has seen from the womb as His own people and does not violate what choice He Knows has already been made by the hard hearted. Romans 8:28 says it well, and Romans 9:22 tells us why God allows evil to exist in the vessels of dishonor.slippedhole said:
The logic of fallen man cannot fathom the depth and character of God and His plan to be known by His creation and to gather for Himself a family - Sons of God, shining forth out of the night of darkness this world is under with its sin and death. I would not let them confuse you with ill logic that is narrow and ignorant of the truth.
The gift given to us is not to compel us to do anything but receive out of love, a cure from sin and death. The lake of fire is for those that chose it, mistakenly accusing God of being wrong for even creating them. Life is a gift, and then to accuse God of requiring something after giving us life not once, but twice, strikes me as plain rebelliousness and ungratefulness disguised in some arrogant kind of self-serving logic that makes them think they have an excuse for choosing hatred instead of love as motivation. There are people that will hate God and be convinced that it is right to do so, right to the end. I encourage you to not let shallow logic move you.
God bless...
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Would you ask a plumber to describe the intricate workings of nuclear physics? Of course not, because they simply have no experience with it. Why then would anyone think an atheist would know the intricate workings of God (something no one understands)?
I have debated atheists for over six years now, and most of them don't want answers to their questions, they are simply laying traps so they can scoff when you fall into one and lose a leg.
Don't doubt simply because you don't have an answer. I don't know how a black cow eats green grass and gives white milk, but that doesn't mean I have to doubt it happens.
I have debated atheists for over six years now, and most of them don't want answers to their questions, they are simply laying traps so they can scoff when you fall into one and lose a leg.
Don't doubt simply because you don't have an answer. I don't know how a black cow eats green grass and gives white milk, but that doesn't mean I have to doubt it happens.
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