Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic Doesn't scripture say women should remain quiet?

Actually no it doesn't..

Women do have souls tho, correct?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7495663-3/#post55607669
Baptists say women don't have souls

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Actually no it doesn't..

Women in 1 Corinthians What does Paul say about women speaking in the church?

"discussion of the Greek words laleo and lego in such passages as I Cor. 14:33-39, with special reference to the question: Does the thirty-fourth verse forbid all women everywhere to speak or preach publicly in Chris­tian churches?"

 

[WarriorAngel]

Other than that, much of what it contains is a defense of the ancient ways, the faith once delivered. I'm a fan of that.

Nice to see you.
Yes, it certainly is a useful tool to understanding each issue we face or wondering what is believed...through a short cut method based on Tradition [history] and Scriptures.

Thanks.

 

[MamaZ]

Women in 1 Corinthians What does Paul say about women speaking in the church?

You didn't say in church in your before post.

 

[MamaZ]

Women do have souls tho, correct?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7495663-3/#post55607669
Baptists say women don't have souls

 

[JacktheCatholic]

You didn't say in church in your before post.

Where 2 or 3 meet in Jesus name there is Jesus.

This site is a meeting place for those and so...

It would be impossible for the apostle to speak more directly or more emphatically than he has done here. He requires women to be silent at the church-meetings.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Pastoral/WarfieldBBWomenSpeaking.htm


What say thee?

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P110.HTM

 

[JacktheCatholic]

"Completely separate" is a term I wouldn't be comfortable with when describing the Invisible Church. The two are certainly linked.

I would say that the Invisible Church is a subset of the Visible Church, that is, all who confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

Jesus is the Church. Mystically speaking the Church is Spirit. As teacher and guide the Church is physical and made of men empowered by God.

Who are these men?

For the RCC it is an Apostolic Succession that this power comes from.

 

[Tangible]

Jesus is the Church. Mystically speaking the Church is Spirit. As teacher and guide the Church is physical and made of men empowered by God.

Who are these men?

For the RCC it is an Apostolic Succession that this power comes from.

For Lutherans it's not about Apostolic Succession, for there are many heterodox churches with valid succession, but whether or not the true Word is preached and the Sacraments properly administered. Even with that stipulation, we recognize that there are true Christians even in heterodox churches.

 

[sunlover1]

I am strictly defining "visible Church" as a holy institution, composed of believers. In this sense, there is a visible Church with members in it.

Do we both agree that the church is the body of Christ?

I hope this clears up what I mean by these terms.

Thank you (Very helpful of you) but I think the main point was to find
out how the earlier Christians felt it was defined, iirc.

If one idea or the other were obvious, this discussion wouldn't exist.

Sure it could.

So, please either address the reasoning I have posted on why the ECF quotes are invalid, since you think they are actually valid.

I'll wait for your decision on the last two for now.
I am very busy IRL but i didn't want to ignore you.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

For Lutherans it's not about Apostolic Succession, for there are many heterodox churches with valid succession, but whether or not the true Word is preached and the Sacraments properly administered. Even with that stipulation, we recognize that there are true Christians even in heterodox churches.

Book of Concord right?

I like how Lutherans have a priesthood and recognize the Real Presence. I understand that, it makes sense to me.

Then I look at John Calvin and his church and it seems something was lost in translation between what Martin Luther did.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Book of Concord right?

I like how Lutherans have a priesthood and recognize the Real Presence. I understand that, it makes sense to me.

Then I look at John Calvin and his church and it seems something was lost in translation between what Martin Luther did.

Or interpretation?

 

[Tangible]

Book of Concord right?

I like how Lutherans have a priesthood and recognize the Real Presence. I understand that, it makes sense to me.

Then I look at John Calvin and his church and it seems something was lost in translation between what Martin Luther did.

Yes. Thanks. And I would have to agree.

 

[sunlover1]

Indeed, and i have seen it done in these very forums...

BUT when one takes the Churches teachings - which are in the Catechism - they address scriptures and all the writings that the Church has held for all ages they can discover the meaning from the teachings through the Church - to explain it to the average lay person who might otherwise render an assault on the truth behind the words meanings. History is also a powerful tool to know the scriptures....and how they thot back then.

Errors are unfortunate. MOSTLY - and i will say this - the errors of understanding usually come from not taking in the whole picture but using snippets of scriptures as well as the fathers, that would in effect seem to contradict one another if one is not careful. This is where doubt can grab hold too.

Actually - i wish it were true the ecf's words were immune. As i said, disregarding the entire writing and writings [which are not apart from themselves] is the basic error made in reading and understanding them.

Good to see you Angel...
I think a much bigger error is in not studying the word to the point of
becoming skilled in handling it yourself.
God helps us by showing us how to avoid "wandering away from the truth"
having falsehoods "spread like gangarene"
He says to learn to correctly handle the word of truth.

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth.

Each father pays strict attention to remind others that no where else but in the CHURCH is the truth.
^^ That is usually the first thing skipped.

"Thy word O Lord is Truth"
(I think 'this' is usually the first thing skipped)

 

[WarriorAngel]

Where 2 or 3 meet in Jesus name there is Jesus.

This site is a meeting place for those and so...


Women in 1 Corinthians What does Paul say about women speaking in the church?


What say thee?



The New American Bible - IntraText

Hehe - not to be a party pooper my friend, and i know you are probably being facetious - but women are the first teachers of the society.
They are given the role as teacher when they have children.

Not sure who it was who said it best...

'Although priests are teachers of many, the first teacher of that priest is their mother.'
And women have the role in society of being teachers.

I had to pick on you.

Good to see you Angel...
I think a much bigger error is in not studying the word to the point of
becoming skilled in handling it yourself.

Actually St Peter said exactly NOT to do that.
Lest we wrest the Epistles of Paul and the scriptures [OT] to our damnation.

EI - heresy = condemnation.
The only way to avoid heresy, Peter inferred, was through an instructor.
He was obviously anti self-teaching.

God helps us by showing us how to avoid "wandering away from the truth"
having falsehoods "spread like gangarene"
He says to learn to correctly handle the word of truth.

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth.


"Thy word O Lord is Truth"
(I think 'this' is usually the first thing skipped)

Wow, i could not have chosen a better verse to point out what i just said.

Who are Hymeneaus and Philetus? They were probably the 1st 'known' heretics who didn't abide by the teachings and created their own heresies against that which was orally taught.

WHY?

Lets' pick it apart a tad bit...
who correctly handles the word of truth.
This doesn't state correctly handling scriptures, but the words of truth being orally taught.
There is but one oral teaching that remains intact.

So - where is it?
Did God abandon that Church He instituted?
Did He allow His ministry through chosen men to vanish and not be here for all times through all ages to teach of Him?

Interesting to note the ecf's - St Ireneaus specifically states that St Peter ordained Clement l to be his successor.
To which St Clement indeed was on Peter's Episcopa [sp] - which means chair.
Actually Peter specified his successor to his Episcopa - Chair.

SO obviously Peter knew:
1) He had a chair
2) There would be successors on it.


Good to see you too.

 

[sunlover1]

Actually St Peter said exactly NOT to do that.

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

The only way to avoid heresy, Peter inferred, was through an instructor.

No he didnt (unless maybe you're ignorant or unstable)

He was obviously anti self-teaching.

No he wasn't
He was anti 'twisting' (distorting)

 

[Memento Mori]

Maybe you should ask how many of the Catholics here have done so, as well as looked up and studied very single one of the Scriptural references (not taht there are that many).




.

Not that there are that many?! I do this as a devotional practice, and I find again and again that the Catechism rests on Scripture.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Book of Concord right?

I like how Lutherans have a priesthood and recognize the Real Presence. I understand that, it makes sense to me.

Then I look at John Calvin and his church and it seems something was lost in translation between what Martin Luther did.

Some have compared Luther and Calvin this way:

Luther opened his drawer, and removed a few things which he saw as problematic.

Calvin opened his drawer, dumped the whole thing out, and only put back what he thought belonged.

It's also been said that Luther was one of the last Medieval theologians where Calvin was one of the first Modern theologians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MamaZ]

Where 2 or 3 meet in Jesus name there is Jesus.

This site is a meeting place for those and so...


Women in 1 Corinthians What does Paul say about women speaking in the church?


What say thee?



The New American Bible - IntraText

We are not in a formal assembling of ourselves together. This is a debate forum to which I am a member. Jesus never told the women He interacted with to shut up and sit down. In fact He sent them to go tell others. Now if I thought I could stand up in a formal assembly and be a Pastor then that is a whole different story. But since that is not what is happening here then you take scripture out of context to how and why it was written.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hehe - not to be a party pooper my friend, and i know you are probably being facetious - but women are the first teachers of the society.
They are given the role as teacher when they have children.

Not sure who it was who said it best...

'Although priests are teachers of many, the first teacher of that priest is their mother.'
And women have the role in society of being teachers.

I had to pick on you.

Hi WA

You know me all too well.

Of course, as a Catholic, I do not understand the scripture the way I was posting.

I was using a Protestant theology to address something taught with Sola Scriptura. It seemed productive to argue a SS theology with another SS theology. An experiment if you will.

It is a teaching by many Protestant churches that women should not teach and should remain quiet so the men can teach. So, why do 'these' Protestant women come here and debate with men?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Some have compared Luther and Calvin this way:

Luther opened his drawer, and removed a few things which he saw as problematic.

Calvin opened his drawer, dumped the whole thing out, and only put back what he thought belonged.

It's also been said that Luther was one of the last Medieval theologians where Calvin was one of the first Modern theologians.

-CryptoLutheran

Sounds like Luther tried to fix things and Calvin rebuilt everything his way.