Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

[MrPolo]

What are the views of non-RCs of the Catechism of the CC?

What's your view?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What's your view?

I have none.....though I was raised RC, was an altar boy for years when I was young, went to a Seminary, I just can't ever remember whether I read it or not......sad but true

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I've studied every single word of it. All 800 pages.


Some comments:


1. It's BIG. There's a LOT there. And it's just the tip of the iceburg; all just very brief summeries of doctrines far, far more extensive. It's not exactly apples to apples, but I have two Catechisms here at my desk. My Catholic one has 800 pages. My Lutheran one has 8.


2. What struck me is the almost entire lack of substantiation. Occasionally, there's a tiny foot note that gives us a Bible reference (almost never with the actual quote). I looked up and studies EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. At times, it seemed either entirely moot to the discussion or actually made the point in the Catechism problematic.


3. It's VERY articulate. OBVIOUSLY the language is very, very intentional and well thought out - to an extent very rarely seen in religion and even doctrinal books. LOTS of thought went into this. I always respected that, and still I use the book at LOT - I just like the clarity and precision of it.


4. I overwhelmingly agree with it. But here and there, something is said that just seems unsubstantiated. A dogmatic fact is made - perhaps remarkable - either with no attempt to document it as true, or if it does, that attempt is entirely inadequate to the point made. I - at times - found myself concluding that there's no reason to determine this is incorrect but also no reason even given to conclude it's correct. And those almost always tended to be issues where the CC departs from all other denominations, distinctives of the CC. Purgatory. Infalliblity of the Papacy. Transubstantiation. Immaculate Conception. Those issues.


5. CCC # 87 makes a foundational claim that should be solidly heard before one opens the Catechism (it should be in those early introductory points). Catholics are required to accept whatever the book says "with docility" as Jesus Himself speaking. This is on a par with Scripture. I think too often people read it as a sort of summery of what Catholics teach, they are to evaluate and consider it or perhaps use it as a reference book for Catholic theology. Wrong. They are to accept every word "with docility" as Jesus speaking. Read it as listening to Jesus. Accept every letter as such (and be a Catholic) or have the integrity to admit that you don't and leave.


It's one of the most referenced books in my library. I HIGHLY recommend it for all Christians. Not as infallibly correct, but as a very articulate and typically very excellent summery of Christian doctrine.



.

My Catechism has approximately 2,300 unique Scriptural references. How many did the one you study have?

I didn't know that. I read them, but I never counted them. Taking your word on that (that's a lot of counting, my friend!) I retract my comment that it didn't seem that much. I just recall a lot of pretty big statements with no biblical reference; many entire paragraphs with none. But, again, I accept your word on that and retract that comment. Probaby wasn't nice anyway (and I AM a really nice guy). My comment #2 above, however, still stands PURELY as my opinion (which is what was sought).


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[boswd]

That makes me want to ask if any other non/ex-RC here has read thru all 800 pages.

Apparently Evangelical TV Pastor Jack Van impe has ( which if anyone knows anything about him that is not too much of a shock) and found this interest quote by him

Van Impe has said, “I have read the entire new catechism, 2800 points. And I know what they believe and we misrepresent them so often. I was one of those bigots who used to do it. And the Spirit spoke to me.”


The part that is highlighted sure does sound like a few people on this board. We don't have to mention any names

 

[boswd]

Catechism

vs.

Scripture




Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused [1987-1995].
Justification is an act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous in His sight, having forgiven his sins and imputed to him God's own righteousness (Romans 3:21-4:8).

Initial justification is by means of baptism [1262-1274].
Justification is by faith alone (Romans 3:28).

Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works [1247-1249]
God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5) Good works are a result of salvation, not the cause (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight [1992, 1999-2000, 2024]. The justified are In Christ holy and blameless before God (Ephesians 1:1-14).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392,2010]. Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete
(Colossians 2:10).

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033,1855,1874]. Justifications cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8,9).

Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance [980, 1446]. there is no second justification. Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies (Romans 8:30)

Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a lifelong process [161-162, 1254-1255]. Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coinciding with justification (Romans 5:9)

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10)

Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief [181-182, 1814]. Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and Savior (Romans 10:8-17).

Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul [1999-2000]. Grace is the undeserved favor of God (Ephesians 1:7,8)

The sacraments are necessary channels for the continual infusion of grace. They bestow grace in virtue of the rite performed [1127-1129]. The child of God is the constant object of the Father's grace (Romans 5:1,2).

Grace is merited by good works [2010, 2027]. Grace is a free gift (Romans 11:6).

Venial sins do not incur eternal punishment [1855, 1863]. Every sin is punishable by eternal death (Romans 6:23).

Serious sins must be confessed to a priest [1456-1457]. Sin is to be confessed directly to God (Ezra 10:11).

The priest forgives sin as a judge [1442, 1461]. No one can forgive sin but God alone (Mark 2:7).

When the guilt of sin is forgiven, temporal punishment remains [1472-1473]. When God forgives sin, He completely forgives (Colossians 2:13; Isaiah 43:25).

Acts of penance make satisfaction for the temporal punishment of sin [1434, 1459-1460]. Jesus made perfect satisfaction for all sins (1 John 2:1,2).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood (Revelation 1:5).

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and cleanse the soul [1030-1031]. Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3).

Poor souls suffering in purgatory can be helped by those alive on earth offering up prayers, good works, and the sacrifice of the Mass [1032, 1371, 1479]. Those who sleep in Christ need no help. To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

No one can know if he will attain to eternal life [1036, 2005]. The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1John 5:13).

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010].
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23).

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, "for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

So these are some of the websites you receive your information from?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Apparently Evangelical TV Pastor Jack Van impe has ( which if anyone knows anything about him that is not too much of a shock) and found this interest quote by him

Van Impe has said, “I have read the entire new catechism, 2800 points. And I know what they believe and we misrepresent them so often. I was one of those bigots who used to do it. And the Spirit spoke to me.”


The part that is highlighted sure does sound like a few people on this board. We don't have to mention any names

I second this!
This also goes for many people in the church I attend as well.
When some of them found out I was a Catholic before they absolutely swamped me one wednesday night, with many many questions...honest and good questions...so they could find out facts. They asked me the basics, but also asked me why I left, and also some very and typically misunderstood doctrines, example: The Immaculate Conception.
They thought it meant Jesus and not Mary's birth, etc.
It was a great evening for all involved, and honestly I still defend the Catholic Church against blatant and typical fundamentalist lies and garbage.

I"m going to pick up a copy of the new Catholic Catecism soon...Im a GEEK when it comes to all things theological.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

oops.....no post

 

[MrPolo]

So these are some of the websites you receive your information from.

It's amazing how badly the Catholic Church overlooked these obvious verses in Scripture for thousands of years. It's like, "Oh SHOOT! Only God forgives sins, how did we 'miss' that!!"

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

To me it preaches a different Gospel than the one layed out in the scriptures..

Or the one that you have been taught to interpret when you read from scriptures.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

..

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

5. CCC # 87 makes a foundational claim that should be solidly heard before one opens the Catechism (it should be in those early introductory points). Catholics are required to accept whatever the book says "with docility" as Jesus Himself speaking. This is on a par with Scripture. I think too often people read it as a sort of summery of what Catholics teach, they are to evaluate and consider it or perhaps use it as a reference book for Catholic theology. Wrong. They are to accept every word "with docility" as Jesus speaking. Read it as listening to Jesus. Accept every letter as such (and be a Catholic) or have the integrity to admit that you don't and leave.

You are simply, completely and totally wrong.

#87 is talking about the Magisterium of the Church, not the Catechism. I really wish you would stop pretending to be an authority on, or knowledgable about the Catholic Church. You continue to say things that are misleading at best. I am not even sure how you can say what you did -as it would be pretty hard to know anything about Catholicism and so clearly misunderstand what was being said.




---------------
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."[47] This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."[48]

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",[49] the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith
88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes in a definitive way truths having a necessary connection with them.

I think too often people read it as a sort of summery of what Catholics teach, they are to evaluate and consider it or perhaps use it as a reference book for Catholic theology.

If you read the catechism, or at least honestly presented what it said, you would know that is what it actually says... rather than totally ignoring the section that SAYS WHAT IT IS FOR and then quoting something from the Magisterium and applying it to the catechism.

---------------
III. THE AIM AND INTENDED READERSHIP OF THE CATECHISM
11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".[15]

12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.

 

[boswd]

It's amazing how badly the Catholic Church overlooked these obvious verses in Scripture for thousands of years. It's like, "Oh SHOOT! Only God forgives sins, how did we 'miss' that!!"

this type of representation of someone's faith borders on what is morally ethical. It is purposely cut and pasted out of context. It blurs the line of actually lying.

this what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches about justification via the catechism.


1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
[SIZE=-1]But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41 [/SIZE]


and if anyone is actually interested in the truth on what they teach on this, here is the whole page and you can decide for yourself if certain people are properly representing other Christians.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

//

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

this type of representation of someone's faith borders on what is morally ethical. It is purposely cut and pasted out of context. It blurs the line of actually lying.

this what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches about justification via the catechism.


1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
[SIZE=-1]But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41 [/SIZE]


and if anyone is actually interested in the truth on what they teach on this, here is the whole page and you can decide for yourself if certain people are properly representing other Christians.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

Something wrong with the premise of this?

 

[boswd]

I don't know why some people just overlook and pretend that part does not exist in Catholic teachings.

I mean we all have our differences and debating on those differences can actually be a great learning experience for both sides.

I don't understand Christians purposley distort other Christians Faiths. I just don't understand.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I don't know why some people just overlook and pretend that part does not exist in Catholic teachings.

I mean we all have our differences and debating on those differences can actually be a great learning experience for both sides.

I don't understand Christians purposley distort other Christians Faiths. I just don't understand.

Can/will you answer my question above concerning the catechism please? Perhaps I misunderstand your stance, are you on the side of Catholics in this instance? or against? to put it bluntly.

I am interested.

 

[boswd]

on the side of Catholics.

maybe I misunderstood yours as well

the part you highlighted do you agree or disagree?

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't agree with all of it; I wouldn't being an Anglican if I did agree with it all!

However, the majority of it I do. I believe it to be an exhaustive yet not necessarily difficult read and authority on the Vatican Catholic Church. I find it very sad that a lot of people willingly misinterpret it for their own purposes; my sympathies as always to VCs when faced with such persecution.

I find it to be an intellectually-pleasing, enjoyable read overall. While I cannot put as much doctrinal emphasis on it as VCs do, I do believe it is an excellent general overview of orthodox Apostolic Christianity.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

on the side of Catholics.

maybe I misunderstood yours as well

the part you highlighted do you agree or disagree?

LOL we totally misunderstood each other...I agree with what I highlighted!

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I don't agree with all of it; I wouldn't being an Anglican if I did agree with it all!

However, the majority of it I do. I believe it to be an exhaustive yet not necessarily difficult read and authority on the Vatican Catholic Church. I find it very sad that a lot of people willingly misinterpret it for their own purposes; my sympathies as always to VCs when faced with such persecution.

I find it to be an intellectually-pleasing, enjoyable read overall. While I cannot put as much doctrinal emphasis on it as VCs do, I do believe it is an excellent general overview of orthodox Apostolic Christianity.

And I honestly agree with this as well...especially the highlighted portion.