Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

Dark_Lite · Sep 20, 2010

bbbbbbb said:
Thank you for the excellent example for contradictory theology from the Catholic Catechism. Please show me from the Catechism where babies have faith and that their faith will save them. Also show me how they, through faith, enter into the sacrament of baptism and thus are saved through baptism.

Thank you.

You have this obsession with compartmentalizing Catholic theology. I don't know why.

Here are more relevant paragraphs on baptism:

CCC said:
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

1253Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents' help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Rarely do I copy and paste large amounts of text, but in this case it seems necessary. The CCC is only contradictory to you because you seem to have this tendency to view Catholic theology out of context. All makes sense as a whole, but only in the whole. One cannot take a piece of lettuce out of a salad and then proclaim they have the whole salad.

Scripture is quite clear in that only those who are born again of spirit and water will enter the kingdom of heaven. Scripture is also quite clear that only those with faith in Christ will be saved. Scripture is also quite clear that the base of faith is written on all hearts of men.

It all fits together in the whole. God does not fit into a tiny little box. He is bigger than all boxes.

Dark_Lite · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
Ok, I just did. Still, I do not see how God pushes grace through sacraments, still all works based.

The Grace of God came through his Son, at least for 'me'.

What do you mean you don't see how?

The logic goes as follows:
1. God gives grace as a free gift to man.
2. Christ instituted sacraments for the dispensation of grace.
3. Christ instituted a Church.
4. The sacraments are found in the Church.

That's not really a formal logical proof, but hopefully it will break down the theology of the sacraments for you.

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

Dark_Lite said:
What do you mean you don't see how?

The logic goes as follows:
1. God gives grace as a free gift to man.
2. Christ instituted sacraments for the dispensation of grace.
3. Christ instituted a Church.
4. The sacraments are found in the Church.

That's not really a formal logical proof, but hopefully it will break down the theology of the sacraments for you.

The only thing that makes sense to me is #1.

Where do you get that Christ instituted sacraments for the dispensation of grace?

narnia59 · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I kind of figured you were going there, just wanted to be sure.

I believe that if you are truly a follower of Christ, believer of the Lord and have the Holy Spirit at work in you, you can't help but OBEY God. This new heart of yours ( born-again Spirit, I know this is something you all do not believe in, but Jesus said it) desires to please God and will do works naturally.

So, I do not believe you can truly be walking with God and fail to do works. It is just a matter of why you do these works and if they flow from you out of a heart of Love of God or fear of going to hell or whatever other reason people feel the need to WORK for their salvation.

You either are serving ( working) for God out of LOVE or FEAR. I mean the 'bad' fear, not the 'fear' of REVERENCE.

So, consequences. There are no consequences because a true follower of God will do good works naturally and as they are lead of the Holy Spirit.

And the "true follower" never has to battle with their flesh over doing those works? I would agree that the follower can't help but be prompted to do these works. But can't help doing them? Sorry, but one doesn't lose their free will nor their battle with temptation. Or if you have, congraulations. Complete and perfect sanctification doesn't come to most of us until after death.

I'm not sure where you get the view that we don't believe in a born-again spirit?

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
How is it that grace, as Scripture says, is administered in its various forms then?

And the grace of the sacraments is always through the Son.

Huh?

narnia59 · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
Huh?

Perhaps you should simply explain if you believe Christians grow in grace, and if so, how that occurs.

Tangible · Sep 20, 2010

bbbbbbb said:
"The Catholic understanding of salvation and grace is indeed a bit different than the Protestant version." is one of the greatest understatements of all time. Apart from works in the Catholic Church there can be no salvation. Works may be motivated by faith, but faith is unnecessary for salvation in the Catholic Church as long as the works are done. Thus, an unbelieving infant will be saved because it has water sprinkled on its head as a chap intones the correct baptismal formula, but an unbelieving infant who does not undergo this rite will be lost.

The Protestant view is that there is no salvation apart from God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church emphasizes works to the exclusion of faith.

The original Protestant view is that God works through Baptism to give saving faith to anyone, regardless of their ability to give cognitive assent.

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
And the "true follower" never has to battle with their flesh over doing those works? I would agree that the follower can't help but be prompted to do these works. But can't help doing them? Sorry, but one doesn't lose their free will nor their battle with temptation. Or if you have, congraulations. Complete and perfect sanctification doesn't come to most of us until after death.

I'm not sure where you get the view that we don't believe in a born-again spirit?

Well, I guess depending on who I talk to the "Born-again" theory is not something that is believed by Catholics.

Yes, we will always battle with the flesh at times. There are times we will fall and that is where the Grace of God covers us. ( At least me anyway). We all sin and fall short, I am not saying we do not.

Ok, so I battle with the flesh at times. For the most part, I still do what God leads me to do.

But, even more so, his GRACE enables me to do what he has called me to do anyway. So, it is never ME doing the work, but Christ living through me ENABLING me do what I am called to do.

What I am trying to explain is that this is a HEART issue, not a sin issue. Christ has paid for my sins, I receive forgiveness when I need it. So, we are going to mess up and not get it right at times.

Thank God for Grace.

The consequences of disobeying God are all dependent on God, it is different depending on the case/person. God does correct and chastise us when we are out of line, because he loves us. Thank God for it.

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
Perhaps you should simply explain if you believe Christians grow in grace, and if so, how that occurs.

It seems are view of what Grace is totally different. I am not sure what you mean when you say grow in Grace, your view of grace comes through sacraments.

narnia59 · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
Well, I guess depending on who I talk to the "Born-again" theory is not something that is believed by Catholics.

Yes, we will always battle with the flesh at times. There are times we will fall and that is where the Grace of God covers us. ( At least me anyway). We all sin and fall short, I am not saying we do not.

Ok, so I battle with the flesh at times. For the most part, I still do what God leads me to do.

But, even more so, his GRACE enables me to do what he has called me to do anyway. So, it is never ME doing the work, but Christ living through me ENABLING me do what I am called to do.

What I am trying to explain is that this is a HEART issue, not a sin issue. Christ has paid for my sins, I receive forgiveness when I need it. So, we are going to mess up and not get it right at times.

Thank God for Grace.

Catholics believe in being 'born again' -- we simply interpret it differently than you do. We believe Christ when he said it means to be born by water and the Spirit -- baptism. And before you go screaming that's "works" and not "faith alone", remember the original "faith alone" guy didn't consider baptism to be a work we do at all.

Yes, we will all fall short, and Christ's mercy is always available. But as we become more and more sanctified, we should sin less and less, true?

narnia59 · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
It seems are view of what Grace is totally different. I am not sure what you mean when you say grow in Grace, your view of grace comes through sacraments.

My view of grace is that it is ministered in many forms, as Scripture says.

To grow in grace should be to become more and more sanctified and holy.

narnia59 · Sep 20, 2010

bbbbbbb said:
The Protestant view is that there is no salvation apart from God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

How are children saved then?

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
My view of grace is that it is ministered in many forms, as Scripture says.

To grow in grace should be to become more and more sanctified and holy.

Ok, If that is what works for you. I do not need sacraments, not for me.

I do believe we are being sanctified DAILY. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, God is completing the WORK HE STARTED IN US. So, on that note, yes we all growing in Grace and going from GLORY TO GLORY.. as scripture says.

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
Catholics believe in being 'born again' -- we simply interpret it differently than you do. We believe Christ when he said it means to be born by water and the Spirit -- baptism. And before you go screaming that's "works" and not "faith alone", remember the original "faith alone" guy didn't consider baptism to be a work we do at all.

Yes, we will all fall short, and Christ's mercy is always available. But as we become more and more sanctified, we should sin less and less, true?

Absolutely! We will sin less and less. The closer you get to God and the more God is doing a work in your 'heart', the less you will sin. That new heart of yours desires nothing more than to please God. I don't have to go around thinking and saying, "Oh, I better not fornicate, etc".

My new heart, My new Spirit that is being sanctified by the power of God desires nothing more than NOT to sin. I am no longer a slave to sin or COMFORTABLE sinning against God. I am now a slave to Jesus Christ and not my flesh. This flesh is being decreased a bit more everyday and CHRIST in increasing in me.

You are preaching to the choir.

narnia59 · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
Ok, If that is what works for you. I do not need sacraments, not for me.

I do believe we are being sanctified DAILY. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, God is completing the WORK HE STARTED IN US. So, on that note, yes we all growing in Grace and going from GLORY TO GLORY.. as scripture says.

It is Scripture that says "Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms." Why one would not wish to avail themselves of all the forms is a mystery to me.

So you think this sanctification just automatically happens and there's nothing you do that participates in that? Or would you agree with something like this view, that there are "means of grace".

Grace also results in our sanctification by what is called the means of grace. The means of grace are those things, like prayer or reading the Bible, which appropriate Gods grace into our lives.

http://www.gotquestions.org/saving-grace.html

Tangible · Sep 20, 2010

ANM29 said:
The only thing that makes sense to me is #1.

Where do you get that Christ instituted sacraments for the dispensation of grace?

Maybe here?

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [into] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me. 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Among many others?

Tangible · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
How are children saved then?

Oh, they have a theory that somehow these children are saved apart from faith in Christ.

Imagine that!

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

narnia59 said:
It is Scripture that says "Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms." Why one would not wish to avail themselves of all the forms is a mystery to me.

So you think this sanctification just automatically happens and there's nothing you do that participates in that? Or would you agree with something like this view, that there are "means of grace".

Grace also results in our sanctification by what is called the means of grace. The means of grace are those things, like prayer or reading the Bible, which appropriate Gods grace into our lives.

I do not need sacraments. You do not seem to understand the the true MYSTERY is God being able to do a work in each one of his children supernaturally without the assistance of 'aids'. Maybe he uses that for you, but not for me.

I have been been changed by God for a number of years now without the assistance of the Catholic Church, and God has done a good job so far. His enabling SUPERNATURAL GRACE has been totally SUFFICIENT for me.

If you need to go to mass, etc to get the Grace of God, go for it. I have been receiving it supernaturally for a long time now. The POWER of God is truly supernatural.

Yes, I read my Bible, go to church as lead, but these things in themselves are not doing the WORK IN ME, the power of God is. They all are a part of the work God is doing and has done, but the true changes in me have come from a supernaturally enabling power called GRACE.

Maybe not for you, but for me. That is why each of us have our own personal relationship with God, it is personal. God does not have to use some ONE cookie-cutter way with all of his children, who told you that lie?

God is so out the box, why do you people keep trying to keep him in one. You can't anyway, you just can't.

God works outside of the Catholic Church. He has children and true followers outside of the Catholic Church. He does not need the Catholic Church to accomplish a heart change, life-change and supernatural transformation in his children. He does this his own way and his own time in each of his children.

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

Tangible said:
Maybe here?

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [into] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy mannerwill be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Among many others?

Ok, what point are you trying to make? I do not get it. Communion is the only thing that I participate in as far as 'sacraments' are concerned. Baptism...

As we know, we do not see eye to eye on that either. I do not not even want to get into that topic right now.

ANM29 · Sep 20, 2010

Tangible said:
Oh, they have a theory that somehow these children are saved apart from faith in Christ.

Imagine that!

Yeah, imagine that! Please tell me how does an INFANT have FAITH IN CHRIST?

God is not going to torment children because they did not get sprinkled of water on their head. This is pure deception, I can't believe people actually fall for this.

Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

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