Noah's Flood

coffee4u said:

You do realize that the global flood was a God-directed event not just some random flood, doing whatever it wanted to, right?

It did what God wanted it to do and one of those things was ripping apart the crust into continents.

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you are the one pushing the what ever you want thing.

Online.Gamer.79 said:

(Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases).

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[Radiocarbon dating]
1) how much carbon-14 is in the dead organism, and 2)
how much carbon-14 was in the organism when it was alive.

The first can be measured with a mass spectrometer.
The second is only a best guess. We know Carbon-14
levels in the atmosphere have changed over time.
Any volcano could have done this.

The further you go back in time, the less reliable
carbon dating techniques become.
-

It's Official: Radioactive Isotope Dating Is Fallible

[Radioactive decay] calculations are based on a significant
assumption or two. Science has proved it is not as reliable
as once though.

Scientists use radioactive decay equations to assert
that Earth is 4.5 billion years old. They were not there
when He (God) “laid the foundations of the earth.”

Geologists assume that the lead trapped in crystals used
to be uranium that decayed into lead over millions of years.
This would make the earth older then the universe.
-

Radiometric Dating
Radiometric Dating | The Institute for Creation Research

Fluctuations Show Radioisotope Decay Is Unreliable
Fluctuations Show Radioisotope Decay Is Unreliable

More Fluctuations Found in Isotopic Clocks
More Fluctuations Found in Isotopic Clocks
-

Dinosaur fossils contain no radioactive elements for
paleontologists to date. They estimate the age of a
fossil by trying to discern the age of the rock layer
in which it was found.

Geologists determine the age of sedimentary rock by
citing the age of the fossils inside the rock.
And paleontologists determine the age of fossils by
citing the age of the sedimentary rock layer.

This is irrational, and called circular reasoning.
The error-prone ways geologists date rock strata are
actually the foundation of the evolutionary hypothesis.

You cannot conclusively determine the age of igneous
rocks without knowing the exact chemical makeup of these
rocks when they originally formed. Second: Rock layers
are not always chronological, and scientists know this.

Science have no way of knowing the exact decay rates
of things before the world wide flood happened.

As much as people may try to discredit the Bible
through science, nothing has proved the Bible false.

The skeptics are either proved sorely wrong, or have
merely disproved preconceived misbeliefs about what
the Bible really says.

We also have definite scientific proof that matter
has not always existed.

GirdYourLoins said:

It was the Observer newspaper in the UK, but was over 20 years ago. They had a reputation of being reliable and trustworthy and it wasnt a fake. At that time I wasnt a Christian. If you think this is fake please provide evidence from a reputable source.

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It must have been misinformation, it's factual that C-24 dating cannot provide anything even remotely close to what you're suggesting was reported.

Like I said, it's like saying that the newspaper described a basketball player shooting a ball across a football field. The idea of people using c-14 dating and concluding ages of 200+ millions of years old simply doesn't make sense. And you can look up any source on carbon dating, no source gives a half life that would allow for such conclusions.

Content - Radioactive decay and half-life.

You should just abandon your claim because it's factually incorrect and is quite simply misinformation.

Semper-Fi said:

Geologists determine the age of sedimentary rock by
citing the age of the fossils inside the rock.
And paleontologists determine the age of fossils by
citing the age of the sedimentary rock layer.

This is irrational, and called circular reasoning.
The error-prone ways geologists date rock strata are
actually the foundation of the evolutionary hypothesis.

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Geologists can use index fossils to date rocks where fossils are geographically well distributed and are of a fine temporal or stratigraphic expanse. But otherwise, the age of layers is not determined with use of fossils. There is nothing circular about superposition, cross cutting relations, lateral continuity, the law of inclusions etc.

Semper-Fi said:

[Radiocarbon dating]



The further you go back in time, the less reliable
carbon dating techniques become.
-




Geologists assume that the lead trapped in crystals used
to be uranium that decayed into lead over millions of years.
This would make the earth older then the universe.

-
You cannot conclusively determine the age of igneous rocks without knowing the exact chemical makeup of these rocks when they originally formed.

Click to expand...

There are many avenues that collectively point to the same direction with respect to Earth's dating.

Many ways of cross checking a validating the age of a formation.

Among these means, I'll briefly present a few:

One example was posted here:
Old Earth Geology

"

Averages change depending on where you are on the planet, but often you get tectonic plate movement between maybe 2-5 cm per year.

If we measure from the center of the atlantic to the east coast US, you get near 300,000,000 cm. Divided by 2 cm per year and you get 150 million years, which just so happens to be pretty close to the age at which east coast mesozoic rocks are dated (see my palisades comment above). And this is just a rough estimate that involved me pulling up the measuring tool on google earth.

people can try to criticize radioactive dating all they want, but the evidence is compelling. So yes, devonian is devonian, but that 400 million years comes with specific support. It isnt just a random arbitrary number. It is relatively dated, in ways which correlates with absolute dating, fossil succession dating and further relative dating.

And this is how the geologic timescale has come to exist. Its a combination between superposition, the law of inclusions, and lateral continuity, along with chemistry and physics used to absolute date it. Uniformitarian geology is a summation of correlating dating among various independent fields of research.
"

Which is to say that, one means of corroborating radiometric dating, is to simply pull out a tape measure and divide total distance of travel by the modern rates of tectonic motion.

Another means of corroborating radiometric dates is by using samples from other localities of the same bed (even samples from the other side of the planet of the same bed), and by using numerous independent methods regarding various different isotopes in various different samples:



Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

Radiometric Dating Does Work! | National Center for Science Education

There are a few tables in the above link that note the following:

1. Dates that corroborate one another.
2. Corroborating dates collected from various samples (even samples from all around the world of the same layers such as the K-T boundary)
3. Corroborating dates from various samples all around the world, via use of varying methods (see the K-T tectites table 2, note use of Ar/Ar, K/Ar, Rb/Sr, U/Pb).
4. Note consistency in results from various teams looking at various samples from various parts of the world, using various methods and machines, all showing the same results. This is something scientists have, that creation research doesn't.

Another means of corroborating radioactive dates, is merely by investigating the isotopes themselves and how their structure exists within a rock:

The popular Allende meteorite for example has daughter isotope locked into a definite crystal lattice of surrounding mineral. More specifically there is decayed aluminum to magnesium entrapped in anorthite. Meaning that the meteorite originally formed with aluminum within it, and decayed to magnesium at a later date. The decay of aluminum having a half life of 730,000 years means that the complete absence of aluminum and presence of magnesium in the meteorite today, suggests the passage of millions of years. No daughter material was added nor removed later than the meteorites formation as observed in the definite crystal lattice of the anorthite. Rather, the parent element formed in conjunction with it's surrounding lattice and later decayed in-situ, almost like how a spy might infiltrate a conference by walking into open doors (parent joins the rock during formation), only to later remove their disguise (decay), while inside the building of closed doors (the definite crystal lattice). Whereas if it had decayed beforehand, it would not have fit into the lattice (much like a spy would be rejected from the conference if he didn't have on his disguise). Meaning that radioactive dating again confirms an ancient earth.

But the posts above then leads to another point worth understanding.

When it comes to index fossils, an index fossil is only as good as the relative dating conducted prior to it.

Three things make index fossils, abundance, geographical expanse, and a refined temporal position in the stratigraphic column (ideally isolated within single periods or less).

The last one is important because it suggests that index fossils in reality are dependent upon relative dating of rocks.

Meaning that index fossils and their use are ultimately based on superposition, cross cutting relations, the law of inclusions, original horizontality and things of the like.

And if anyone really has a problem with an index fossil, the simple solution is to use relative dating to demonstrate that it isn't temporally refined.

And these are very simple and fundamental concepts that nobody is in a position to dispute. Older rocks are on the bottom, younger on the top.

And note that rocks are also typically laterally continuous, as discussed early as a product of oceanic transgressive and regressive sequences, which means that some rocks cover hundreds of miles, even if a river has eroded part of it away, or even if rocks above or below it are absent in some places. Meaning that as long as someone has a 5th grade education and can do connect the dot puzzles, they can also observe the geologic column and associated faunal succession.






Let's see how the pictures come out.

The above just points out that there are many ways of corroborating dating methods. And none of the above includes the other dating methods that conclude an old earth, fission track dating, electron spin resonance dating, ice core dating, tree ring dating, varve dating, luminescence dating, among other methods of corroboration. Some say that perhaps multiple varves could form in a single year, but when you have 5 million varves, young earthers enter a strange dimension where they are trying to explain how one giant flood could lay down 5 million repeating thin-thick sequences (perhaps thousands per day?), all in the shape of a geographically radial lake that just so happens to only contain lacustrine fauna (the young earth creationist denial could not be more extreme). Old Earth Geology Part 3 (Green River Formation)

And in order to effectively deny radiometric dating and the faunal succession, a person basically has to deny literally all of physics and chemistry, geology, paleontology, biology and even geography. And this isnt an exaggeration. I digress.

Semper-Fi said:

. Second: Rock layers
are not always chronological, and scientists know this.

.

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This is like saying that geologists also are aware that sometimes people put their pants on backwards. Yes it is true that sometimes during mountain building events, an older layer can get pushed above a younger layer. But in these instances, much like when you put your pants on backwards, it's readily apparent and is of no consequence to understanding the broader picture of the circumstance. We aren't completely lost whenever a rock flips upside down. Sometimes we also have fossil features that tell us original directions of strata as well. If we find upside down fossil foot tracks for example, it becomes quite easy to conclude that a layer has been flipped over.

1an said:

The whole earth and the nations in it were not destroyed. There were other nations before the Israeilites and the Old Testament is all about THEM not the whole world. They did not even know America existed.

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All life was wiped out God repeats that more than once. America didn't even exist then the world was one piece of land, the flood tore apart the land creating the continents.

And again you ignore the fact that the rainbow was Gods promise to never send another flood like it. if the flood was local to the Israelites then there have been many floods just like it since. You don't build an ark for animals just for a local flood.

Quartermaine said:

how did this vapor canopy extend life expectancy? By crushing people under it's enormous pressure?

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The water vapour canopy would have been in perfect harmony to life on earth since God created it to be that way. It would have been the work of a fool to have made it so thick it crushed the creation.

It would have let light through while blanketing the earth in warm temperatures from pole to pole. Filtering out harmful radiation from space allowing for much longer life spans and also growth spans of animals that don't stop growing. Like a warm but not stifling greenhouse. This is why they all lived to 900+ years and why there are remains of gigantic animals.

Life on earth is delicately balanced and the vapour canopy would have been no different. God created it to be the perfect thickness no more or less.

Psalm 148:4

4 Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.

The water above was the vapour canopy, which came down at the flood.


Genesis 5 before the flood
Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.
Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.
Again and again, the average life span was shown to be around 900 years.

Genesis 11 After the Flood
Shem lived 500 years and had other sons and daughters.
Arphaxad lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.
Shelah lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.
Eber lived 430 years and had other sons and daughters.
Also again and again the life span was now 400-500 years old.
Something had changed -it was the climate and the radiation.

coffee4u said:

All life was wiped out God repeats that more than once. America didn't even exist then the world was one piece of land, the flood tore apart the land creating the continents.

And again you ignore the fact that the rainbow was Gods promise to never send another flood like it. if the flood was local to the Israelites then there have been many floods just like it since. You don't build an ark for animals just for a local flood.

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You have so much to learn.

Quartermaine said:

how did this vapor canopy extend life expectancy? By crushing people under it's enormous pressure?

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I will just take a WAG on this one, something to do with cosmic rays?
So before the flood people lived how long? 500 some years? and after the flood our days were shortened to 125 years, uhm sounds like population control.

1an said:

You have so much to learn.

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I will believe scripture, you can believe whatever you want to.

17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

johneb said:

I will just take a WAG on this one, something to do with cosmic rays?
So before the flood people lived how long? 500 some years? and after the flood are days were shortened to 125 years, uhm sounds like population control.

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pre-flood 900 years
Post-flood 400-500 years
Dropping further and further as time went past.
the only thing stopping us dying out even earlier is modern medicines.

coffee4u said:

I will believe scripture, you can believe whatever you want to.

17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

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Locust covered the face of the earth. I have never seen locust in England.

Online.Gamer.79 said:

Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

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We have no way of knowing if radiocarbon dating is accurate beyond several thousand years so I take the dating of buildings with a pinch of salt. A global flood is a reasonable explanation for globally uniform patterns in rock layers and the fossils that formed in this sedimentary rock. But this is not a salvation issue,I was a TE before I was a Creationist. The key thing is to accept God as Creator and Sustainer of life.

The bible never said the earth was flat and attributes illness to a defiance of the natural order of things and especially the fall. In specific cases spirits perpetuate illnesses or are the source of severe mental delusions.

How do you know the earth is not the centre of the universe. Heliocentrism or Galactic centre centrism aside how could you know for sure.

mindlight said:

We have no way of knowing if radiocarbon dating is accurate beyond several thousand years so I take the dating of buildings with a pinch of salt. A global flood is a reasonable explanation for globally uniform patterns in rock layers and the fossils that formed in this sedimentary rock. But this is not a salvation issue,I was a TE before I was a Creationist. The key thing is to accept God as Creator and Sustainer of life.

The bible never said the earth was flat and attributes illness to a defiance of the natural order of things and especially the fall. In specific cases spirits perpetuate illnesses or are the source of severe mental delusions.

How do you know the earth is not the centre of the universe. Heliocentrism or Galactic centre centrism aside how could you know for sure.

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Radiocarbon isn’t the only radiodating method . There are about 30 short lived radioactive nuclides that no longer exist naturally on earth that point to the fact that earth is old .

Al-26 IIRC is just one of them . The difference between C14 being used and the fact of these ghost nuclides, is that C14 is being continually made by radiation in the atmosphere. Living organisms breath it in and use the carbon to build their bodies. After death they don’t intake any more.

The other radioactive nuclides are non-renewing . Which means they DONT continually reform by natural processes on earth .

Here’s the kicker! . All short-lived non-renewing radionuclides with half-lives of 8million years or less are not found on earth because they’ve decayed away completely.

let’s give it 40 half-lives of 8 million years. Which is 40x 8million or 320 million years . Which basically means you’re cutting something in half 40 times .

If you start with a billion tons of pure substance (2000,000,000,000 lbs ) you’ll end up with a 1lb after 40 half-lives ( half a kilogram)

the earth is much, much older than 320 million years ! So these 30 elemental nuclides don’t exist on earth anymore .

so how do we know these aren’t fairytales ?
1 Nuclear physicists can recreate them in the lab.
2 sometimes we find stable daughter products


There’s no doubt that the earth is old . Multiple lines of Verifiable evidence point that out from multiple fields of science . This is physics and geologists on CF have given you geological evidence.

coffee4u said:

The water vapour canopy would have been in perfect harmony to life on earth since God created it to be that way. It would have been the work of a fool to have made it so thick it crushed the creation.

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unless it never existed in the first place.

It would have let light through

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how?

while blanketing the earth in warm temperatures from pole to pole.

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temperatures of thousands of degrees is warm i will grant you that.

Filtering out harmful radiation from space allowing for much longer life spans and also growth spans of animals that don't stop growing.

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and that explains why cave dwelling animals live for thousands of years and grow to gigantic proportions....oh wait....they don't do that.

Like a warm but not stifling greenhouse. This is why they all lived to 900+ years and why there are remains of gigantic animals.

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most megafauna mammals grew that large in response to the ice age.... so what happened to the oh so nice greenhouse?

Life on earth is delicately balanced and the vapour canopy would have been no different. God created it to be the perfect thickness no more or less.

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perfect except for light, and pressure and temperature....but who cares about those things

The water above was the vapour canopy, which came down at the flood.

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you do know that your "vapour" canopy is itself water....right?

Coffee is sweet but she really don’t understand even elementary school science.

No light would have gotten through your vapor canopy. All you’d have to do to see that is to watch how a cloud blocks the sun . If you picture this much thicker and blanketing the earth ....


Your thick vapor canopy is also made up of a greenhouse gas - water. The heat from the sun comes in and cannot escape easily . Raising the temperature high enough to make the surface molten .

Air is actually has weight and that presses on you . Adding enough water to cover Mt Everest to the atmosphere adds that weight to the air already there . You’d be crushed by the pressure .

Online.Gamer.79 said:

Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

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God said that He would never destroy the earth, again, in this manner..

If the flood was not a total global flood... and was only a local flood... Then, due to the simple and obvious fact that many places have been flooded... God either lied.... or it was a total global flood.

Science facts are like dominoes. If you knock over the first one the others fall too!

creationists tend to forget that! Which is the reason their pseudoscientific explanations don’t work

Jack, or these were stories of local floods that people exaggerated out of terror . Look at the wildfires out west . I couldn’t imagine living through that as I live nowhere near there .

I suppose if my great great great x 100 greats grandparents had lived through an environmental catastrophe, that it would have become part of the extended family lore.