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Noah's flood
- Thread starter purity2holiness
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iambeeman
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Wasn't so much an objection but rather a question.
And it also MAY mean that all the animals not on the ark died in the entire world.
Context indicates that it is assumed that anything saved did not die and anything not saved died, therefore "every living thing" is referring to those who where not saved.
That's not what it says, " At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made, 7 and sent forth a raven; and it went to and fro until the waters were dried up from the earth" Not to mention that after the raven - " 8 Then he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters had subsided from the face of the ground; 9 but the dove found no place to set her foot, and she returned to him to the ark, for the waters were still on the face of the whole earth. So he put forth his hand and took her and brought her into the ark with him." So after the raven it wasn't dry.
That's not what it says, "10 He waited another seven days, and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 11 and the dove came back to him in the evening, and lo, in her mouth a freshly plucked olive leaf; so Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth." It was a leaf not a twig. I'm not familiar with the germination of olive trees but I've seen entire fields turn green from black in less than a week, so it's really only an assumption that it means that everything was not destroyed.
It's as near to it as I care to see and I'm sure there are those who escaped such event who return, who would argue that point. Remember too that people now have a lot of infrastructure to help mitigate the effect of the waters, though I freely admit the tsunami wasn't able to be planned for.
That's just it, this what I've done, and I find that it is the only logical conclusion that the flood of Noah was global. I would recommend listening to this- http://scitascienda.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/2-20091114-wmbc-silvestru-flood.mp3
That's not really what I was saying, I was simply drawing the most logical conclusion from the scriptures. Perhaps if people would spend more time in scripture and less on the opinions of scientists who have assumptions of what happened we would be better off.
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F
FrozenOne
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Yes the flood was worldwide.
Source from: In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - A Few of the Mysteries
Mid-Oceanic Ridge. One of our planets most dramatic features and the earths largest structural feature, the Mid-Oceanic Ridge, was discovered in the 1950s. It wraps around the earth and is the worlds longest mountain range46,000 miles. Unlike most mountains, it is composed of a type of rock called basalt. Because most of the ridge lies on the ocean floor, relatively few people know it exists.
Figure 44: World Ocean Floor. Notice the characteristic margins of each continent. Seaward from each ocean beach is a shallow, gradually sloping continental shelf, then a relatively steep drop, called the continental slope. This strange pattern is worldwide.
The hydroplate theory proposes that:
a. These continents were once in the approximate positions shown in Figure 53. (below)
b. They were connected by rock that was rapidly eroded and transported worldwide by erupting subterranean water.
c. As these eroded sediments were deposited, they trapped and buried plants and animals. The sediments became todays sedimentary rock, and buried organisms became fossils.
d. The continents quickly slid on a layer of water (rapid continental drift) away from the rising Mid-Atlantic Ridge and toward the subsiding Pacific floor. They came to rest near their present locations.
Figure 53: Continental Plates on a Globe. By far the best fit of the continents is with the base of the Mid-Atlantic Ridgenot with other continents, as shown in Figure 52.
All along this globe-circling rupture, whose path approximates todays Mid-Oceanic Ridge,52 a fountain of water jetted supersonically into and far above the atmosphere. Some of the water fragmented into an ocean of droplets that fell as rain great distances away. This produced torrential rains such as the earth has never experiencedbefore or after. In other words, the flood of Noah's time.
Figure 59: Flood Phase. Sediments in the escaping water increased until their volume nearly equaled the volume of water gushing out. These suspended particles quickly settled and buried plants and animals in a chaotic mixture. During this phase, a phenomenon called liquefaction sorted sediments, animals, and plants into horizontal layers that are more uniform and cover a much larger area than sedimentary layers laid down today. Traces of these dead organisms are called fossils.
I just put some of the more basic info above, to get a full understanding go to the link I put above.
Source from: In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - A Few of the Mysteries
Mid-Oceanic Ridge. One of our planets most dramatic features and the earths largest structural feature, the Mid-Oceanic Ridge, was discovered in the 1950s. It wraps around the earth and is the worlds longest mountain range46,000 miles. Unlike most mountains, it is composed of a type of rock called basalt. Because most of the ridge lies on the ocean floor, relatively few people know it exists.
Figure 44: World Ocean Floor. Notice the characteristic margins of each continent. Seaward from each ocean beach is a shallow, gradually sloping continental shelf, then a relatively steep drop, called the continental slope. This strange pattern is worldwide.
The hydroplate theory proposes that:
a. These continents were once in the approximate positions shown in Figure 53. (below)
b. They were connected by rock that was rapidly eroded and transported worldwide by erupting subterranean water.
c. As these eroded sediments were deposited, they trapped and buried plants and animals. The sediments became todays sedimentary rock, and buried organisms became fossils.
d. The continents quickly slid on a layer of water (rapid continental drift) away from the rising Mid-Atlantic Ridge and toward the subsiding Pacific floor. They came to rest near their present locations.
Figure 53: Continental Plates on a Globe. By far the best fit of the continents is with the base of the Mid-Atlantic Ridgenot with other continents, as shown in Figure 52.
All along this globe-circling rupture, whose path approximates todays Mid-Oceanic Ridge,52 a fountain of water jetted supersonically into and far above the atmosphere. Some of the water fragmented into an ocean of droplets that fell as rain great distances away. This produced torrential rains such as the earth has never experiencedbefore or after. In other words, the flood of Noah's time.
Figure 59: Flood Phase. Sediments in the escaping water increased until their volume nearly equaled the volume of water gushing out. These suspended particles quickly settled and buried plants and animals in a chaotic mixture. During this phase, a phenomenon called liquefaction sorted sediments, animals, and plants into horizontal layers that are more uniform and cover a much larger area than sedimentary layers laid down today. Traces of these dead organisms are called fossils.
I just put some of the more basic info above, to get a full understanding go to the link I put above.
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I'm sorry but an event like you describe would involved such energy that the planet would be a molten mass. And I am not even including the heat released when the subterranean water is expelled. It's all well and good saying things like "continents quickly slid on a layer of water" but real world physics is not like an experiment in your bathtub. This hydroplate theory is non-physical nonsense.
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NGC wrote:
Not only is the hydroplate "theory" non-physical nonsense, but the main proponent of it admits this. Baumgartner has publically stated that the hydroplate idea won't work, unless one literally ignores the laws of physics to make it work.
Conveniently, Baumgartner says that the God miraculously changed the laws of physics during the flood to allow his hydroplate story to actually happen. You know your so-called "scientific" idea is incorrect when you have to invoke miracles to get it to work.
Papias
Not only is the hydroplate "theory" non-physical nonsense, but the main proponent of it admits this. Baumgartner has publically stated that the hydroplate idea won't work, unless one literally ignores the laws of physics to make it work.
Conveniently, Baumgartner says that the God miraculously changed the laws of physics during the flood to allow his hydroplate story to actually happen. You know your so-called "scientific" idea is incorrect when you have to invoke miracles to get it to work.
Papias
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To make Noah's Flood global instead of large local (as I believe), we would have to believe in a magnificent miracle unrecorded and unattributed to God. I don't buy this. God created the universe and set it in motion with the Big Bang. As Thomas Aquinas first stated, there is no uncaused event. God spoke the first cause into existence. The universe has a beginning. From then on, God's incredible framework from the smallest particle known to physics to the largest in the universe, all follow the logic of our creator. H2O is always water, NH3 is always ammonia, etc. God has set up a predictable framework we are still trying to fully understand. But every event has a cause, randomness does not exist. Oh, something may appear random, but it's usually understood after much scientific study. I do not believe God would go against His own laws that hold together the universe. That's not to say I do not believe in miracles. God's will be done.
For those who believe in a Global Flood, I ask one more time: where did the water come from and where did it go. The physics of Noah's Flood don't add up. I agree with you Papias, the hydroplate theory is nonsense and makes wannabe scientific Christians look to be very naive who propose such ideas.
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G
good brother
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Where were the laws of physics when Jesus walked on water?
Where were the laws of physics when Jesus immediately turned water into wine?
Where were the laws of physics when God parted the Red Sea so that Israelites could cross on dry land?
Where were the laws of physics when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave?
Where were the laws of physics when Jesus Himself was raised from the dead?
Where were the laws of physics when God predicted things that would happen thousands of years into the future?
Where were the laws of physics when God made the Earth stand still and the day lasted until Joshua had won the battle?
Where were the laws of physics when Samson's strength was in his hair?
Where were the paws of physics when Jesus shall come again to resurrect all the dead in Christ and take them to heaven along with those of us that remain?
In Christ, GB
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These were miracles, no doubt about it. They however do not explain the following verses:
Genesis 6:4 - The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. [NASB 1977]
Numbers 13:32 - So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size.
Numbers 13:33 - "There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." [NASB 1977]
The Nephilim were not destroyed by Noah's Flood. So this is direct scriptural proof that Noah's Flood was a large local flood. There is evidence of this flood in the Black Sea.
God is Sovereign. He can suspend the laws of physics because his will holds all things together in the universe. He is not surprised by anything. He is Sovereign.
Hebrews 2:4 - God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. [NIV]
Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [NIV]
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- Oct 28, 2007
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How about looking at Noah's flood from a scientific point of view.
102 - A Universal Flood - Amazing Discoveries TV
102 - A Universal Flood - Amazing Discoveries TV
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As I've said quite often, I am not an evolutionist, neither theistic nor secular. But the physics of what this man is claiming does not make sense. You might as well say it was a miracle that defies explanation. Consider the four rivers mentioned in Genesis in relation to the garden of Eden. Three of those rivers exist now as they did in Adam's time. The fourth has been identified by satellite photos and is now dry. But it did exist. The upheaval here would not have left them untouched, in my opinion.
So if you believe this is scientific, do you also accept the Big Bang and the age of the Earth as scientifically determined at 4.54 billion years old? There is a lot of experimental data to support an old universe. You cannot believe this man and believe in a young Earth. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.
Here's another opinion on Noah's Flood. This is not something we as Christians should divide over. The Gap Theory and Local Flood take the Bible as literal as the 6000 year old Earth and Global Flood do.
The Genesis Flood: Why the Bible Says It Must be Local
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- Oct 28, 2007
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Have you even looked at the video. The video is showing that the evidence of what we see in nature right now shows that a flood must have occured as the bible says it. Not that the flood happened because of some scientific event.
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I should add that the Gap Theory also recognizes a global flood, it is between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. It is not Noah's Flood however.
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Yes. This is not the first time I've heard this argument, although I'm not familiar with this speaker's work (except from listening to it earlier today). There's some indication he is associated with the SDA, although I do not know this for certain. I am highly skeptical of his work and the organization that supports his seminars.
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G
good brother
Guest
That paper is not as well thought out as it appears in first reading. The author ignores as many passages as he/she quotes in their defense of a local event. In fact, in more than one occasion,the author literally had to leave off some part of a passage to make his/her viewpoint sound even remotely viable. I could literally take any part of that paper and "tear it to shreds" from a biblical perspective.
In Christ, GB
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Take an objective approach to listening to the information. Should it really matter if he is SDA or Catholic, if the information is credible? I'm not presented the guy to you, but the information.
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That's my fault. I did not do due diligence when I provided that link. I usually recommend the book "A Biblical Case for an Old Earth" by David Snoke, which includes a section on Noah's Flood being local. Other parts of the book I do not agree with (his viewpoint is Theistic Evolutionist). What you have to realize is I adhere to the Gap Theory, pretty much in line with Dr. Finis Jennings Dake, "The Bible Knowledge Commentary" and "Unger's Commentary of the Old Testament". Part of the Gap Theory version I ascribe to shows Biblically there were two floods. One was a global flood between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and the other was a large local flood, this being Noah's Flood. There is scientific evidence for a large local flood. One scientific book is:
Amazon.com: Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About the Event that Changed History (9780684810522): William Ryan, Walter Pitman: Books
I do not make Noah's Flood the focus of my Biblical study, at least not at this point in my life. It's important for me to be able to reconcile my scientific mind with Biblical truth. I believe the Bible should be taken literally, I just do not always agree with the translation. That's why I have and refer to many commentaries, word studies, Jewish customs and manners, etc.
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Being an engineer with a scientific background, I am trained to look at data without preconceived opinions, letting the data speak for itself. It does matter where the information comes from, most assuredly. Why believe one man standing against a whole host of scientists who are not trying to fund SDA mission trips to India? Pray for wisdom and discernment, and I will do the same. Hopefully, a respected scientific journal will look into this hypothesis to see if it has any merit.
God Bless Brother
Faith.Man
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- Mar 16, 2004
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Just tossing my two cents worth in, think nothing of it. Anyway, never really had a problem with a local flood, it sure could make the timeline for evolution a lot easier. Going from thousands of reptiles, birds, and mammals (including 8 humans) presents a radical accelerated evolution that would have scarred Charles Darwin to death.
That was an interesting thing about the four rivers BTW, I'll have to check into that.
Grace and peace,
Mark
That was an interesting thing about the four rivers BTW, I'll have to check into that.
Grace and peace,
Mark
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I wish I could provide you with a link, but I did see a satellite photo that pretty much showed the 4th river bed, right where the Bible said it would be. The information was within the last year if I remember correctly, but I just don't remember the source. Reading Genesis it always bothered me where that 4th river was. As for evolution, theistic or darwinian, I'll leave that for others to argue. I have my answer. My scientific mind is at peace with what God has shown me in His word.
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