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I agree. It always seemed more interesting to me that Christ's teachings would be the key, and the sacrifice more a symbol. But I always got the vibe from many denominations that yeah the teachings were nice and all but the sacrifice was the key.
Faith is a gift and neither my path nor your path is new. I could argue the atheist vantage point if it weren't for the fact that I'm spirit born.My apologies for assuming something about your version of soteriology that is why I phrased it as a QUESTION.
And by your fruit I feel I know you just a bit better.
The fact that I lack the faith you have does not necessarily mean I am wrong and you are right. But I understand that you are scared that my path is not inherently in error and you lack the ability to definitively point out that error. So you do what so many of your faith do and place the blame on me for failing to arrive at the same place you are at.
Don't sweat it and no need to apologize but do be aware that it is a pretty hackneyed response.
There was a gospel before the tragic cross ever happened. It changed after Jesus left. The gospel of Jesus became a gospel about Jesus as the Pagan world adopted and customized it more to their liking.Was Christ's sacrifice then not necessary? (I am fascinated by this because it is a much more ecumenical version of Christianity than I normally see here. I would prefer a Christ who's "value" is in the teachings not the suffering. That always sounded so cruel and unnecessary to me.)
Actually, skeptics just sit back self satisfied with the claim that since we can't prove who we know then it must not exist.
Faith is a gift and neither my path nor your path is new. I could argue the atheist vantage point if it weren't for the fact that I'm spirit born.
We might both agree that the universe is expanding. But what if the universe expands and contracts on 1 billion year cycles in a respiratory like fashion? Those who claim expansion would be correct for 999 million, 999 thousand, 999 days until the contraction began. Then a whole new fact and consequence would be revealed. So to all appearances the expansion crowd was undeniably correct, but if they drew conclusions of a final value then they did so without all the facts.
I get the impression from your comments that you have drawn conclusions of final value.
Actually, skeptics just sit back self satisfied with the claim that since we can't prove who we know then it must not exist.
I get the impression from your comments that you have drawn conclusions of final value.
That's a great question, what qualifies as incontrovertible according to your specifications? After that then what?I will claim that you probably utilize this version of skepticism in everyday life. On countless claims others make.
If someone were to come up to you and say they have a miracle cure for every ailment you have, I suspect you will demand some form of proof before paying them vast sums of money for this cure.
Skepticism is a very good tool that keeps us safe. But for whatever reason we are asked to not use it in conjunction with the most important topic imaginable (God). In fact many people of faith will command us not to even DARE be skeptical, just believe.
My question has always been: if God is real why can't I ask for at least some incontrovertible evidence? It is, in many ways, like Job's questions. And the answer seems to be "how dare we ask for this!"
I'm going to respectfully disagree.Actually, all the stories from other countries verify the world wide flood,
I'm skeptical of plenty of things. I never believed in Noahs flood! I'm also skeptical of many other claims made by the people who killed Jesus. The NT also has errors. Paul just happened to be the first great evangelist, he never knew Jesus in the flesh. He couldn't help but bring his own opinions into the rapidly evolving Christian religion. And while I belive there was a revelation to Jogn on Patmos, it was chopped up and redone by some opocolyptic goofs!Actually the claim is that there is no valid reason to believe. A subtle but important difference. Your version would have skeptic not acting in a properly skeptical manner. If one is a proper skeptic one must be willing to change if proper evidence is give for a contrary belief.
You are familiar with the Great Attractor model of late?I understand your point, but we would observe contraction on such a short period of time. The universe has continually expanded over its history. But that could change in the future. There is no indication of such a change being upcoming, nor does it fit any rhyme or reason. But physicists my not have a complete grasp on the situation, yet.
You are familiar with the Great Attractor model of late?
I'm skeptical of plenty of things. I never believed in Noahs flood! I'm also skeptical of many other claims made by the people who killed Jesus. The NT also has errors. Paul just happened to be the first great evangelist, he never knew Jesus in the flesh. He couldn't help but bring his own opinions into the rapidly evolving Christian religion. And while I belive there was a revelation to Jogn on Patmos, it was chopped up and redone by some opocolyptic goofs!
Jesus chose some skeptics as followers, one he lost.
Ya know, sometimes skeptics can get so skeptical that they become skeptical of their own skepticism?
I'm going to respectfully disagree.
They get names wrong (including God's) and are way off in details; even though Shem lived right up to the time of Jacob to set the record straight.
Those stories are nothing more than mockeries of what really happened.
Human things must be known in order to be loved, but divine things must be loved in order to be known.
There is NO shortcut to the experience of finding God.
"God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality.
That's awfully convenient! (Because now there's absolutely no difference between something that DOESN'T exist and God! BOTH share this same crucial attribute!)
No worries.... think on this a while....I'm going to respectfully disagree.
They get names wrong (including God's) and are way off in details; even though Shem lived right up to the time of Jacob to set the record straight.
Those stories are nothing more than mockeries of what really happened.
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