Noah's Ark

[mmcneely]

I've got a few problems with Noah's Ark:

1. The size of the ark. Noah's Ark was about 450ft long, 75ft wide, and 45ft tall. This is entirely too small to house Noah, his family, and all the animals much less provide adequate storage for the food and waste of the animals.

2. Collecting the animals. There are some animals that can only be found in remote areas of the world. The three toed sloth, for example, can only be found in the rain forest of South America. Even if it were to make a beeline from it's home (7170 miles away) it would take it 47,000 years to reach the destination. (Max speed is 0.15 MPH) Not to mention have to learn how to swim across the Atlantic Ocean and learn how to survive a trip across the Sahara. Also, some animals like the Koala Bear only eat one type of plant. Which, is native to Australia.

3. The Date of the Flood. Most Biblical scholars agree that the flood happened around 2300 BC. Problem with that is that modern archaeology has placed major historical events during and around that time. Some scholars will take the date as far 9600 BC, but again we have continuous events happening then as well.

These are just some of the questions that I have about the "Great Deluge" If anyone can respond with any sort of logical response I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Ever read mythology?

Or the Epic of Gilgamesh? Specifically the story of Utnapishtim?

 

[drich0150]

I've got a few problems with Noah's Ark:

Probably because you are by themselves looking at man's/Noah's efforts, to save the world. God Saved Noah, his family and the rest of the world through the faith and efforts of Noah and his family.

1. The size of the ark. Noah's Ark was about 450ft long, 75ft wide, and 45ft tall. This is entirely too small to house Noah, his family, and all the animals much less provide adequate storage for the food and waste of the animals.

Again The Ark was a simple demonstration of the Faith that one man and his family needed to help save creation. the fact that the Ark was not big enough points to a God who provided in every area, were our efforts fell short. God save creation through this effort. This effort did not save creation from God.

2. Collecting the animals. There are some animals that can only be found in remote areas of the world. The three toed sloth, for example, can only be found in the rain forest of South America. Even if it were to make a beeline from it's home (7170 miles away) it would take it 47,000 years to reach the destination. (Max speed is 0.15 MPH) Not to mention have to learn how to swim across the Atlantic Ocean and learn how to survive a trip across the Sahara. Also, some animals like the Koala Bear only eat one type of plant. Which, is native to Australia.

If you actual read the account in the bible you will find that God brought the animals to Noah and not the other way round. (Something that is consistently over looked in the commentaries that question this event.)

3. The Date of the Flood. Most Biblical scholars agree that the flood happened around 2300 BC. Problem with that is that modern archeology has placed major historical events during and around that time. Some scholars will take the date as far 9600 BC, but again we have continuous events happening then as well.

The bible does not give a date. So those "bible scholars" are simply guessing. Just like the archaeologists who have guessed it took place 9000 years ago. Or like the ones who choose to ignore all evidence of a great flood all together, they have an agenda to discredit Christianity.

These are just some of the questions that I have about the "Great Deluge" If anyone can respond with any sort of logical response I would greatly appreciate it.

What are the other questions?

 

[Johnny Todd]

God brought all the animals to Noah, they very well could of been freshly weened animals, so they all could of been relatively small in size, even dinosaurs from eggs are not very big, when first hatched, also all of the animals did not act like normal animals, lions did not attack their normal prey and so on, It was a completely supernatural event.

 

[Steve Petersen]

God brought all the animals to Noah, they very well could of been freshly weened animals, so they all could of been relatively small in size, even dinosaurs from eggs are not very big, when first hatched, also all of the animals did not act like normal animals, lions did not attack their normal prey and so on, It was a completely supernatural event.

Apply Occam's razor to your post, please.

 

[drich0150]

Apply Occam's razor to your post, please.

Maybe that is why we do not have unicorns, dragons or pixies any more.

Do you not believe that the God who call all of these animals together could also in turn get them to play nice together?

It seems Everyone focused on mans efforts here only looking at the logistical issues that would arise if we were to recreate our half of this event. Their is indeed another part of the story that "we" have no control over, and can not reproduce. even so we must account for God's involvement in these events.

 

[golgotha61]

I've got a few problems with Noah's Ark:

1. The size of the ark. Noah's Ark was about 450ft long, 75ft wide, and 45ft tall. This is entirely too small to house Noah, his family, and all the animals much less provide adequate storage for the food and waste of the animals.

2. Collecting the animals. There are some animals that can only be found in remote areas of the world. The three toed sloth, for example, can only be found in the rain forest of South America. Even if it were to make a beeline from it's home (7170 miles away) it would take it 47,000 years to reach the destination. (Max speed is 0.15 MPH) Not to mention have to learn how to swim across the Atlantic Ocean and learn how to survive a trip across the Sahara. Also, some animals like the Koala Bear only eat one type of plant. Which, is native to Australia.

3. The Date of the Flood. Most Biblical scholars agree that the flood happened around 2300 BC. Problem with that is that modern archaeology has placed major historical events during and around that time. Some scholars will take the date as far 9600 BC, but again we have continuous events happening then as well.

These are just some of the questions that I have about the "Great Deluge" If anyone can respond with any sort of logical response I would greatly appreciate it.

Here is a site with some interesting and informative views on the ark:Were Dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark? - Answers in Genesis

 

[jehoiakim]

I certainly don't claimed to have all the answers but I can give you some of the ones I have heard

I've got a few problems with Noah's Ark:

1. The size of the ark. Noah's Ark was about 450ft long, 75ft wide, and 45ft tall. This is entirely too small to house Noah, his family, and all the animals much less provide adequate storage for the food and waste of the animals.

I have heard it argued that he brought immature and baby animals which would give a lot more room, waste is waste so it could easily go over board

2. Collecting the animals. There are some animals that can only be found in remote areas of the world. The three toed sloth, for example, can only be found in the rain forest of South America. Even if it were to make a beeline from it's home (7170 miles away) it would take it 47,000 years to reach the destination. (Max speed is 0.15 MPH) Not to mention have to learn how to swim across the Atlantic Ocean and learn how to survive a trip across the Sahara. Also, some animals like the Koala Bear only eat one type of plant. Which, is native to Australia.

If there was a world wide flood certainly the earth would have looked quite different then it does now maybe even something similar to what we is known as Pangea, and just because those animals exist now in those places doesn't mean that is where they would have come from to get on the ark, only where they would have ended up

3. The Date of the Flood. Most Biblical scholars agree that the flood happened around 2300 BC. Problem with that is that modern archaeology has placed major historical events during and around that time. Some scholars will take the date as far 9600 BC, but again we have continuous events happening then as well.

A lot of dating us subjective I have heard of a lot of mixed results that can occur for example with carbon 14 dating where all sorts of things can effect the outcome making it questionable at best. I however am not a scientist so I don't know how legitimate those claims are, although when it was explained to me it seemed quite logical. Also some have theorozed the it was a local flood, and it was "the known world" that flooded at the time. I don't know if I accept that, but I know some have proposed it

These are just some of the questions that I have about the "Great Deluge" If anyone can respond with any sort of logical response I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[mmcneely]

Or the Epic of Gilgamesh? Specifically the story of Utnapishtim?

Yes I have. Mythology is just that... a myth. Are you implying that Noah's ark is purely myth?

 

[mmcneely]

Probably because you are by themselves looking at man's/Noah's efforts, to save the world. God Saved Noah, his family and the rest of the world through the faith and efforts of Noah and his family.

I understand why the Bible says it saved Noah. The main discussion here is the process in which Noah/God made the ark.

Again The Ark was a simple demonstration of the Faith that one man and his family needed to help save creation. the fact that the Ark was not big enough points to a God who provided in every area, were our efforts fell short. God save creation through this effort. This effort did not save creation from God.

I don't understand what your trying to say here. The ark is not big enough to house all of the MILLIONS of species we have on earth. Plus the MILLIONS more that have gone extinct. It also does not have enough room to fill the ark with enough provisions to feed half of the animals much less all of them.

If you actual read the account in the bible you will find that God brought the animals to Noah and not the other way round. (Something that is consistently over looked in the commentaries that question this event.)

I have read it many times. So, God magically picked up the animals from around the world and magically transported them to Noah?

The bible does not give a date. So those "bible scholars" are simply guessing. Just like the archaeologists who have guessed it took place 9000 years ago. Or like the ones who choose to ignore all evidence of a great flood all together, they have an agenda to discredit Christianity.

Many Christian websites agree to the date of approximately 2300BC. Please at least Google it before you come here. Most scientists are not out to discredit the Bible, most of them are just out to find the facts.

 

[mmcneely]

"I have heard it argued that he brought immature and baby animals which would give a lot more room, waste is waste so it could easily go over board.

The problem with most immature babies is that most of them would not have survived the migration... unless you bring the special God magic into the mix.

"If there was a world wide flood certainly the earth would have looked quite different then it does now maybe even something similar to what we is known as Pangea, and just because those animals exist now in those places doesn't mean that is where they would have come from to get on the ark, only where they would have ended up."

Indeed the world would have looked different, but not as different as you are suggesting. The sloth only lives in rain forests, and the nearest rain forest to Noah would have been in Malaysia. That's still several thousand miles away, with a little bit of ocean in between.

"A lot of dating us subjective I have heard of a lot of mixed results that can occur for example with carbon 14 dating where all sorts of things can effect the outcome making it questionable at best. I however am not a scientist so I don't know how legitimate those claims are, although when it was explained to me it seemed quite logical. Also some have theorozed the it was a local flood, and it was "the known world" that flooded at the time. I don't know if I accept that, but I know some have proposed it."

So, what do you accept? Gen 7:19-20 "high hills under the whole heaven" defiantly suggest that it was a world wide flood. The dating that I'm referring to is from Biblical scholars using the Bible to find the date.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yes I have. Mythology is just that... a myth. Are you implying that Noah's ark is purely myth?

A memory of an older event (the flooding of the Black Sea basin about 7500 BC) that found its way into the Bible via the ancient Sumerian legends.

 

[drich0150]

I understand why the Bible says it saved Noah. The main discussion here is the process in which Noah/God made the ark.

The ark was just a symbol. How it was made paid homage to the faith Noah had in God's good grace.

I don't understand what your trying to say here. The ark is not big enough to house all of the MILLIONS of species we have on earth. Plus the MILLIONS more that have gone extinct. It also does not have enough room to fill the ark with enough provisions to feed half of the animals much less all of them.

OK, so if the Ark(made by man) was not big enough then it would be up to God to save all who was assigned to the Ark. By making the provisions last by making more room, by calming the animals, etc, etc...

The Ark did not save creation, God did through this symbol of faith.

I have read it many times. So, God magically picked up the animals from around the world and magically transported them to Noah?

If that is the picture you need to draw to make that passage work then so be it.

Many Christian websites agree to the date of approximately 2300BC. Please at least Google it before you come here.

How did what I say contradict what any person who would give the "great flood" a specific time table?? Please explain.

Most scientists are not out to discredit the Bible, most of them are just out to find the facts.

So what of those who represent a "theory" as "fact?"

 

[razeontherock]

The ark is not big enough to house all of the MILLIONS of species we have on earth.

This is the single most common mistake made in atheistic feasibility studies done on the ark, making them all laughably inapplicable. The Bible says nothing about each species being housed on the ark.

If you want to be sciencing, you need to start with facts

Also, you are not accounting for two other very major aspects of this story:

1) the extent of the differences on the earth pre and post-flood, which will vary quite a bit depending on the model, and easily resolve almost every point you have raised

2) God's miraculous intervention is part and parcel of this story no matter how you slice it, so why pick and choose? To turn this into science experiment boggles one's sensibilities.

There is a thread about how dinosaurs couldn't possibly live at their known size in present day conditions, and different theories accounting for this are presented. Wouldn't that be a heckuva lot more interesting? One poses that the atmosphere was fully 2/3 as dense as the dinos themselves, which accounts for their odd body proportions of being so large in the rear and so small in the front - for propulsion in such an environment. It also raises interesting ramifications for the problem of, where did all the water for the flood come from?

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that science one day may put this all together and conclude exactly what God has told us all along ...

 

[mmcneely]

The ark was just a symbol. How it was made paid homage to the faith Noah had in God's good grace.

Where did God say it was a symbol? I just read and reread the flood account. The only mention of a symbol was the rainbow at the end. Or do I have to read in between the lines.

OK, so if the Ark(made by man) was not big enough then it would be up to God to save all who was assigned to the Ark. By making the provisions last by making more room, by calming the animals, etc, etc...

Ok, so if even God did make the food last and somehow made all of the animals behave, you still have Gen 7:21 where God destroys everything that is outside of the ark.


" How did what I say contradict what any person who would give the "great flood" a specific time table?? Please explain."

Quote from you: "The bible does not give a date. So those "bible scholars" are simply guessing. Just like the archaeologists who have guessed it took place 9000 years ago. Or like the ones who choose to ignore all evidence of a great flood all together, they have an agenda to discredit Christianity."

So what of those who represent a "theory" as "fact?"

Theory - A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
Fact - A thing that is indisputably the case.

All Facts are theories, but not all theories are facts. Examples: Theory that the earth is not flat, The Expanding Universe, Black Holes, and Heliocentric Solar System.

 

[drich0150]

Where did God say it was a symbol? I just read and reread the flood account. The only mention of a symbol was the rainbow at the end. Or do I have to read in between the lines.

One would have to have a broader knowledge of the bible, that is not limited to the first 10 chapters of Genesis. This would include the book of Hebrews and the works of Peter. They add the commentary that attribute the works of Noah to His Faith.

OK, so if even God did make the food last and somehow made all of the animals behave, you still have Gen 7:21 where God destroys everything that is outside of the ark.

...and? What is the question?

" How did what I say contradict what any person who would give the "great flood" a specific time table?? Please explain."

Quote from you: "The bible does not give a date. So those "bible scholars" are simply guessing. Just like the archaeologists who have guessed it took place 9000 years ago. Or like the ones who choose to ignore all evidence of a great flood all together, they have an agenda to discredit Christianity."

And??? Because the bible does not give a date, that means who ever ascribes a date to these events are indeed guessing. (Even if the factoid in question is tied to a web site that goggle recommends)

Theory - A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

Lets see what Merriam-Webster has to say:

the·o·ry

noun \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
plural the·o·ries
Definition of THEORY

1
: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

2
: abstract thought : speculation

Fact - A thing that is indisputably the case.

fact

noun \ˈfakt\
Definition of FACT

5
: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
All Facts are theories, but not all theories are facts.( ) Examples: Theory that the earth is not flat, The Expanding Universe, Black Holes, and Heliocentric Solar System

Definition 5 is the only definition of "fact" that pertains to this discussion.
In short a "fact" is a statement that can either be proved true of false. A "fact" as it pertains to a theory has nothing to do with absolute truth.

 

[mmcneely]

This is the single most common mistake made in atheistic feasibility studies done on the ark, making them all laughably inapplicable. The Bible says nothing about each species being housed on the ark.

Gen 6:19 "You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures." What the heck does that mean then?

If you want to be sciencing, you need to start with facts

If you want to be so religious, maybe you should read the Bible.

1) the extent of the differences on the earth pre and post-flood, which will vary quite a bit depending on the model, and easily resolve almost every point you have raised

What differences? Can you prove any of this or is it all conjecture?

2) God's miraculous intervention is part and parcel of this story no matter how you slice it, so why pick and choose?

I'm just going by what the Bible says. God told Noah that he would make the ark, and that he would gather the animals, and that he would gather the food. Gen 6:15-21. All in the span of 100 years. That, is definitely not enough time to complete those tasks.

To turn this into science experiment boggles one's sensibilities.

Because it is scientifically impossible.

There is a thread about how dinosaurs couldn't possibly live at their known size in present day conditions...

Can you post that link here?

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that science one day may put this all together and conclude exactly what God has told us all along ...

You know, your right. BUT on the other side of the coin science may confirm that the story of Noah's ark is nothing more than myth.

 

[mmcneely]

One would have to have a broader knowledge of the bible, that is not limited to the first 10 chapters of Genesis. This would include the book of Hebrews and the works of Peter. They add the commentary that attribute the works of Noah to His Faith.

Please then. Enlighten me with these verses you have to support your claim. I'm sure that in my 17 years of Biblical study I may have overlooked them.

...and? What is the question?

You stated: "OK, so if the Ark(made by man) was not big enough then it would be up to God to save all who was assigned to the Ark...

I said that the ark wasn't big enough to house two of every animal that existed at the time. Are you suggesting that God selected the animals that would survive the deluge? Please, look up Gen. 6:19 before you answer this.

And??? Because the bible does not give a date, that means who ever ascribes a date to these events are indeed guessing. (Even if the factoid in question is tied to a web site that goggle recommends)

So, your saying that we should discredit all of the work and study that your Biblical scholars have put into this? I was in no way implying that Google is the end all for research. Also, if you cannot know at least when the even happened, how can you know that it happened at all?

Ok, If you can't understand that a theory can in fact be fact you have got to extremely uneducated. Back when everyone thought that the world was flat, someone came up with the theory that it was round. Guess what? The earth is round and that theory was proven as fact. That does not change the fact that it is still a theory. If you have taken any sort of science class you would know this. Look at your number 1 definition of the word theory. I would also suggest going back and rereading the rest of the definitions of the word fact. Just because a word has multiple definitions doesn't mean we can cherry pick the one we like best.

 

[drich0150]

Please then. Enlighten me with these verses you have to support your claim. I'm sure that in my 17 years of Biblical study I may have overlooked them.

In 17 years of dedicated study then I am sure you know how a concordance works, try searching "Noah."

I said that the ark wasn't big enough to house two of every animal that existed at the time. Are you suggesting that God selected the animals that would survive the deluge? Please, look up Gen. 6:19 before you answer this.

Maybe you should read into the next chapter alittle. Because as it is written, what was recorded in 6:19 was somewhat a rough draft of what was to actually happen as layed out in Chapter 7... So yes God did select what went into the ark.

So, your saying that we should discredit all of the work and study that your Biblical scholars have put into this?

What I am saying this their "guesses" are not to supersede the written word of God. that their commentary should be viewed as commentary and taken with a grain of salt next to what is written. How does that relate? Well as I pointed out their was not a date given for the flood. Because of this it is only a guess to name a year. Their best guess along with anyone else's are just that, a guess no matter who makes it..

I was in no way implying that Google is the end all for research. Also, if you cannot know at least when the even happened, how can you know that it happened at all?

Outside of what is recorded in scripture we know nothing of the flood.

OK, If you can't understand that a theory can in fact be fact you have got to extremely uneducated.

Guilty, but apparently so are the folks at Merriam Webster according to your assessment. I appear to be in good company.

Back when everyone thought that the world was flat, someone came up with the theory that it was round. Guess what? The earth is round and that theory was proven as fact.

What you do not seem to be able to comprehend is the the "theory" that the earth was flat was also a "factual theory." Or so say the reference material I quoted. Again that would mean that a "fact" is not a kin to an absolute truth.

That does not change the fact that it is still a theory. If you have taken any sort of science class you would know this. Look at your number 1 definition of the word theory. I would also suggest going back and rereading the rest of the definitions of the word fact. Just because a word has multiple definitions doesn't mean we can cherry pick the one we like best.

Did you not also read the examples? What I chose Specifically spoke to What we were discussing!! That IS reason I "cherry picked" those definitions!

Apparently the folks at Merriam Webster also recognized the relationship "Fact" has with "theory" and so they defined and limited how these words compliment one another. The definitions I left are their words, and not mine. so if you do not like how these two words are officially recognized with one another, please do not waist anymore time talking to me about it. Tell the folks at Merriam Webster how the "educated" view or understand how these two words really work together.

 

[StormHawk]

I've got a few problems with Noah's Ark:

1. The size of the ark. Noah's Ark was about 450ft long, 75ft wide, and 45ft tall. This is entirely too small to house Noah, his family, and all the animals much less provide adequate storage for the food and waste of the animals.

Sadly many modern bible teachers transpose modern understandings of phrases such as
"the whole earth" and "under heaven" to the bible and get the wrong conclusion.

For example, thousands of years later, in Solomon's time, The Queen of Sheba was said
to have come "from the uttermost parts of the earth" (Matt. 12:42). But Sheba (modern
day Saudi Arabia) is not the uttermost parts of the earth today, but it was then.


The scriptures teach that the flood was not global:

Genesis 1v1-10 describe how the waters initially covered the globe, until the dry land appeared
and the waters were collected into seas.
Psalm 104 also talks about the same initial creation (you will find that God always gives at least
two "witnesses" to things that need to be established):

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast
founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn
not again to cover the earth. (Ps. 104:5-9)

- Note the last verse.
This alone rules out a later global flood.

Other verses confirm this:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said,
Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
(Job 38:4-11)

Again, note the last verse.

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made
the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens,
I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the
waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth"
(Proverbs 8:22-29)

Again, note the last verse.

(Also Job 26:6-10)

This article makes more points.

2. Collecting the animals. There are some animals that can only be found in remote areas of the world....

Answered above, additionally Genesis 6:20 makes the point that the animals "shall come unto thee" - probably because the animals instinctively sense danger and head for high ground.