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Noah's Ark and the Cheetah

justlookinla

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The problem here is that when we examine how violent flood events carve things, they don't tend to curve very much. Certainly not the hairpin turns seen in the Colorado River. I'm not sure if you espouse the view that all sediment was laid down in the flood, but if you do, these hairpins form a serious problem for that hypothesis, as while erosion was clearly the culprit, a single flood event simply could not have done that.

Ok, so a single flood event didn't do that. Now what?

Right, but I'm looking for a scientific defense of Noah's Ark. Some people claim that this is scientifically possible, and science excludes supernatural causation (for reasons detailed here).

Science is littered with it's errors, what's true today may not be true tomorrow. It's conclusions concerning this flood is not to be trusted, in other words.

I've found the bible to be extremely trustworty so now I have a decision to make. Do I trust ever changing science which, by the admission of some isn't interested in truth, or do I trust the bible which has given me life.

I trust the bible and reject the conclusions of 'science' which disputes the biblical story.

Of course it is, but how the water moves determines how things erode. Flood channels are typically fairly straight and shallow. They don't leave winding channels such as those seen in the grand canyon. Those are most typically left by a river flowing across an uplifting plateau - as the plateau uplifts, the river dams, backs up, and cuts through the softest surrounding strata, leaving a lazy, meandering path.

Rivers meander and they meander during a flood. I live near the Mississippi River and if one were to look on a map, you'd find that over the past 200 years, new meandering channels have been cut during the many floods (before the river was 'engineered' with levees). Some of the channels are almost gone, but the state lines still follow the old riverbed and when you think you're in one state in the current channel, you're actually in another.

Lots of flooding and lots of meandering and lots of erosion changes lots of land.
 
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AV1611VET

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I think its quite unproductive to try to fight science (i.e. reality) with interpretations of a holy text.
But it's okay to fight interpretations of a holy text with science?
 
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VirOptimus

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Science is littered with error. It can't be fully trusted.

Science and the scientific method is a way of describing reality.

And sure, our methods and understanding of reality are always being refined, but thats through science, not through theology.

Science and theology answers very different questions.
 
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The Cadet

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Ok, so a single flood event didn't do that. Now what?

Many creationists hold that all strata was laid down in a single worldwide flood. Just to be clear, that's not in the cards.

Science is littered with it's errors, what's true today may not be true tomorrow. It's conclusions concerning this flood is not to be trusted, in other words.

Now that's just not true. While an ever-expanding amount of evidence can allow well-established ideas to be overturned, it is an iterative, not an inventive, process. That is to say, Newtonian physics was wrong, but the error was small enough for it still to be useful. Einsteinian physics didn't replace Newtonian physics, it refined it. In other words, while "officially" science cannot offer us the truth, it offers us a method of getting ever closer to the truth, and many things that can be taken as truth. A mustard seed is not the smallest plant seed. No amount of new data will change that fact. The earth is not flat. No amount of new data will change that fact. We have dated rocks to be billions of years old. Again, it basically doesn't matter what new data is revealed; it almost certainly will not change that fact.

I mean, just to be clear. If a theory in science is proven wrong, that means any correct predictions made by that theory were lucky coincidences. What this means for, say, radiometric dating, is that somehow, countless scientists just got lucky when they dated samples of known age correctly. That's kinda crazy.

I've found the bible to be extremely trustworty so now I have a decision to make. Do I trust ever changing science which, by the admission of some isn't interested in truth, or do I trust the bible which has given me life.

Science isn't interested in "the truth" because "truth" is a philosophical concept, but it boils down to pretty much the same thing, colloquially. The purpose of science is making correct and useful models of reality which we can base predictions off of. If these models are inaccurate - that is, if the claims they make are untrue - then they will almost certainly be useless when it comes to predicting reality.

I trust the bible and reject the conclusions of 'science' which disputes the biblical story.

Why? What epistemology have you used to determine that the bible is trustworthy? You say it's been reliable; what does that mean? Have you been able to use it to make predictions? To create new technology? To better understand the world? I mean, you're denigrating the method that allows you to talk to jerkwads across the world on a box of lights made up of billions of tiny switches which communicates at near light-speed with other boxes made up of billions of tiny switches.

Here's a consideration for you - science is always changing; how do you know your computer won't suddenly explode? Because that's not how science works. Science is built upon observation and interpretation of data. The data itself does not change. In order to replace one interpretation with another, you need an explanation which more accurately explains all the available data, and is thus more certain than the previous one. You don't understand the thing you're fighting against. I strongly recommend reading IronChariot's article on the subject.

Rivers meander and they meander during a flood. I live near the Mississippi River and if one were to look on a map, you'd find that over the past 200 years, new meandering channels have been cut during the many floods (before the river was 'engineered' with levees). Some of the channels are almost gone, but the state lines still follow the old riverbed and when you think you're in one state in the current channel, you're actually in another.

Lots of flooding and lots of meandering and lots of erosion changes lots of land.

Cite? Preferably from some source that actually knows a thing or two about geology?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Ok, so a single flood event didn't do that. Now what?

Now you are getting somewhere. We know that the Flood of Genesis could not have done this. The only other explanation that I know of is the standard geological explanation. That means there was no worldwide flood.


Science is littered with it's errors, what's true today may not be true tomorrow. It's conclusions concerning this flood is not to be trusted, in other words.

I've found the bible to be extremely trustworty so now I have a decision to make. Do I trust ever changing science which, by the admission of some isn't interested in truth, or do I trust the bible which has given me life.

I trust the bible and reject the conclusions of 'science' which disputes the biblical story.

Of course there are errors in the history of science. What you don't understand is the nature of those errors and how they are dealt with. Science has a correction mechanism built into it. The errors of science keep getting smaller and smaller. The Bible is littered with errors too. How does the Bible deal with its countless errors?


Rivers meander and they meander during a flood. I live near the Mississippi River and if one were to look on a map, you'd find that over the past 200 years, new meandering channels have been cut during the many floods (before the river was 'engineered' with levees). Some of the channels are almost gone, but the state lines still follow the old riverbed and when you think you're in one state in the current channel, you're actually in another.

Actually no. New meandering channels are not cut during floods. They are formed when the river is flowing steadily. Meanders may be cut across during floods, but that is a destruction of meanders, not a formation of them:

http://www.onegeology.org/extra/kids/earthprocesses/meanderingRivers.html

Lots of flooding and lots of meandering and lots of erosion changes lots of land.

And this fails. Meanders do not form during floods. Also that picture was of one meander. You have still failed to explain the structure being discussed.
 
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Grafted In

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Couple of things....Where the cheetah thing come from? I was unaware of the comment regarding them

Second, who are we to claim that the laws of physics are universal? God may very well have created other areas of His infinite creation with far different laws than those known to man. An example is the existence, yet not in sufficient amounts to satisfy our understanding, anti-matter. Where's it at?
 
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justlookinla

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Science and the scientific method is a way of describing reality.

And sure, our methods and understanding of reality are always being refined, but thats through science, not through theology.

Science and theology answers very different questions.

And the 'refinement' establishes a basis that one cannot really believe the latest proclamations of science for there may be 'refinement' of the current view of science, i.e., error.
 
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justlookinla

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Now you are getting somewhere. We know that the Flood of Genesis could not have done this. The only other explanation that I know of is the standard geological explanation. That means there was no worldwide flood.

No, you believe the guesses and suppositions that the flood of Genesis did not do that. You have your faith-based view, I have mine.

Of course there are errors in the history of science. What you don't understand is the nature of those errors and how they are dealt with. Science has a correction mechanism built into it. The errors of science keep getting smaller and smaller. The Bible is littered with errors too. How does the Bible deal with its countless errors?

I find no error in the bible.

Actually no. New meandering channels are not cut during floods. They are formed when the river is flowing steadily. Meanders may be cut across during floods, but that is a destruction of meanders, not a formation of them:

http://www.onegeology.org/extra/kids/earthprocesses/meanderingRivers.html

And this fails. Meanders do not form during floods. Also that picture was of one meander. You have still failed to explain the structure being discussed.

Meanders do form during floods. I've observed flood waters breach natural barriers and create new channels which meandered alongside the main channel. I'm not claiming that's the only way meanders are formed, but it's one way.
 
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The Cadet

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Couple of things....Where the cheetah thing come from? I was unaware of the comment regarding them

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Second, who are we to claim that the laws of physics are universal? God may very well have created other areas of His infinite creation with far different laws than those known to man. An example is the existence, yet not in sufficient amounts to satisfy our understanding, anti-matter. Where's it at?

Every single scientific advancement is dependent upon the idea that the laws of physics are universal. There have been numerous attempts to change them; thus far, no example has been found. Whether antimatter follows the same laws of physics is still up in the air; that said, given that it is so fundamentally different to any matter in the universe, I'm not sure why one would expect it to function the way normal matter does. That's hardly the laws of physics changing; they're still constant, they just interact differently with certain particles.

Besides I thought the understanding of modern science was that natural curiosities such as the Grand Canyon were the result of the walls pushing up, not erosion.

The whole plateau pushed upwards. Just the walls would require each side of the canyon to be its own continental plate, with a third in the middle containing the riverbed. The entire plateau uplifted, and the river eroded through this uplift.

And the 'refinement' establishes a basis that one cannot really believe the latest proclamations of science for there may be 'refinement' of the current view of science, i.e., error.

So why are you still typing on that insane death trap? Holy cow, dude, don't you know that our understanding of reality could change at any time, making the parts of your computer woefully obsolete to protect you from the electricity flowing through it?

You do not understand science.

No, you believe the guesses and suppositions that the flood of Genesis did not do that. You have your faith-based view, I have mine.

But we know what flood deposits look like, and we can look for them in the geologic column. It's no guess or superstition to look at the rock layers between now and 10,000 years ago and notice no global flood.

I find no error in the bible.

Of course not; the only reliable method we've got to determine anything about nature is something you throw out every time it contradicts the bible! If you're going to ignore every scrap of scientific evidence that shows that the bible is wrong, of course you won't be able to spot the errors! It's like if I had a book that said 2+2=5, and then I said "I don't trust mathematics" - I couldn't find the error because I'm ignoring the tool necessary to find the error in the first place!

But even then, I think we can find an error. Just tell me - who bought the potter's field following Jesus's crucifixion? And how would you treat leprosy?
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's worked for me. I guess Scientism has worked for you.


You dodged the question, and you know that "Scientism" is a made up word that deniers of reality use. If you want to call me something, then call me a Realist. Your Bible has countless errors. It has no method to correct them. And you are probably doing will in spite of what your Bible teaches you, not because of what it teaches you.
 
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