Noah's Ark (2)

[Orogeny]

I (not qualified) think however that the bodies of fresh and salt water would mix? And as I stated earlier, what would keep the salt water fish from rising into the fresh water layer? My understanding is that fish have swim bladders that keep them at the right depth.

Density stratification based on salinity (or temperature) is quite common. In fact, it was well demonstrated on the TV show Planet Earth.

What would keep the fish from rising into the fresh water layers is that they would be uncomfortable in fresh water, so they would swim back to a level at which they were comfortable. It is my understanding that swim bladders can be emptied and filled, and is actively controlled by the fish.

 

[Orogeny]

1. Please state your beliefs on the subject, I've asked you twice now.

There is abundant evidence in support of evolution, and none that I know of that refutes it. Please be mindful, however, that we aren't discussing evolution here, but the processes involved in the flood.

Well, yes but when you have water systems as complected as many inland fresh water ones, you'd get a mix unexplainable by evolution.

Why?

How did these animals get home anyhow? Divine power?

As water level dropped, they found an environment that suited their lifestyle. Those that were not successful in this venture died. They would not have had to go far to do this, since they would likely have stayed in the vicinity of their natural habitat anyhow.

What was the point of the whole ark hassle anyway?

To preserve Noah and his family, as well as specimens of each species.

Edit: Yes, I noticed that (ID) when someone else used it a day back or so.

Burn.

 

[Insane_Duck]

I haven't the foggiest. Aren't they?

Not that I know of, and for your theory to work, every single species would have to have their seeds ingested.

SDR's are not the chambers themselves. They would likely have overlain or abutted the chambers.

Is there enough water on planet earth to flood it to the highest mountain peaks?

There is abundant evidence in support of evolution, and none that I know of that refutes it. Please be mindful, however, that we aren't discussing evolution here, but the processes involved in the flood.

As there is no limit to God, there is no reason why God couldn't alter existing circumstances with no trace, or alter our perception. An infinitely powerful God is a paradox anyway (A rock so big he can't lift it? There are somethings you simply can't do within our logic) so why are we debating his ability to use natural processes, no limit remember?

Why?

Different ponds and bodies of water would mix, and (oddly enough) as AV pointed out, the fish would swim over land all over the place and die. We would have fish fossils all over the dry-est areas, but we don't.

As water level dropped, they found an environment that suited their lifestyle. Those that were not successful in this venture died. They would not have had to go far to do this, since they would likely have stayed in the vicinity of their natural habitat anyhow.

Well, given the currents that would be involved in a global flood I doubt they would be able to stay.

To preserve Noah and his family, as well as specimens of each species.

Yes, but why a flood? God could just untraceable kill everyone but Noah. My point is it sounds less like a divine plan and more like a local tribe story based on a smaller event. (flooding of Ur)

 

[Insane_Duck]

[/quote]

I'm not sure which point you are addressing with this. You would be better understood if you would quote a passage, and then respond to it directly following, as most members of this form do.

I'm giving it a try.

I think you are referring to my comment about natural geologic processes. My point is that God worked through natural processes, so we can investigate with natural processes as well.

We could, but it's useless, see below.

The chambers would have contained some portion of that water, with the other portion provided by precipitation.

Precipitiaion can only take existing water... Is there enough water anywhere on the planet to make the sea level rise above the highest mountain peaks?

There is no wonder lost in understanding that God can work through natural as well as supernatural processes.

But it doesn't matter. Because regardless of any logical barrier we but in the way, God will somehow transcend it, because he is beyond us. So talking like this is useless. Whether God exists and whether he desires to work like this is the real question.

I notice a change from certain dates for the dynasties prior to the Akkadian Dynasty, and 'circa' dates starting with the Akkadian. The beginning of the Akkadian Dynasty coincides surprisingly well with the supposed time of the flood. It is possible that the Sumerian kingdom was repopulated post flood, and their culture (as understood from artifacts remaining after the flood) was in part adopted by the people living there. Of course, it is mere speculation by archaeologists that there was no break at this time. After all, trying to understand a thousands of years old culture via the few remaining artifacts of that culture is like trying to decipher the culture of New York City from the graffiti on the buildings and a few copies of the Times.

I find that a little (a lot) hard to believe. They didn't record any of this? No, only one small tribe in the corner of the middle east reported this. And you would have to move pretty fast (Noah's descendants) to cover the previous human settlements. Short term memory loss? The story apparently just vanished when you crossed certain border lines. No, its more likely a story based on a local flood. (Epic of Gilgamesh)

 

[Insane_Duck]

Oh yeah, about earlier.

Every animal breeding incestuously from two animals to repopulate the planet would cause some serious issues. And the fossil thing only applies if you are a creationist.

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And also, the animals spreading out is useless if they can't swim. How did the diverse amount of animals get to the different island and continents?

 

[Orogeny]

Not that I know of, and for your theory to work, every single species would have to have their seeds ingested.

Sure, if you make the pretty hefty assumption that my one example is the only way that specimens could be preserved. That's a big assumption.

Is there enough water on planet earth to flood it to the highest mountain peaks?

Yes. Keep in mind that the ocean basins were not nearly so deep upon initiation of the flood. It was not until the ocean floors began to subside into the void left by evacuation of the 'waters of the deep' that our oceans began to develop there current capacity.

As there is no limit to God, there is no reason why God couldn't alter existing circumstances with no trace, or alter our perception. An infinitely powerful God is a paradox anyway (A rock so big he can't lift it? There are somethings you simply can't do within our logic) so why are we debating his ability to use natural processes, no limit remember?

His ability to use these processes is not in debate. Whether or not he used them, as well as which were used is the debate. But if you just wanna say GODDIDIT, don't you think that's kind of a cop-out?

Different ponds and bodies of water would mix, and (oddly enough) as AV pointed out, the fish would swim over land all over the place and die. We would have fish fossils all over the dry-est areas, but we don't.

Generally the driest areas (the continental altiplano, the planes, etc.) are not environments in which we preserve fossils. The bodies would have decayed away or been eaten. The vast majority of fossils are preserved in aqueous environments.

Well, given the currents that would be involved in a global flood I doubt they would be able to stay.

There were significant currents? Do you have evidence of this, such as flood-derived sedimentary deposits or flood-related scour channels?

Yes, but why a flood? God could just untraceable kill everyone but Noah. My point is it sounds less like a divine plan and more like a local tribe story based on a smaller event. (flooding of Ur)

Who would learn a lesson from everybody just BOOM dying? He works in mysterious ways. Anyway, you're making a philosophical argument, and an argument from incredulity at that.

 

[Orogeny]

I'm giving it a try.

Thank you. Much easier to process.

We could, but it's useless, see below.

My friend. Maybe I haven't been clear. I am trying to show you that a global flood is possible with a minimum of 'supernaturality'. You'll note that I'm not imparting any of my own supernaturality, so why are you so insistent that there should be some? Do you just want me to say GODDIDIT that badly?

Precipitiaion can only take existing water... Is there enough water anywhere on the planet to make the sea level rise above the highest mountain peaks?

Explained in previous post. Also, extraterrestrial water, as from one or several well-timed comets, could theoretically contribute a part of the water. That would be quite a stretch, though, and I'm not terribly comfortable with that.

But it doesn't matter. Because regardless of any logical barrier we but in the way, God will somehow transcend it, because he is beyond us. So talking like this is useless. Whether God exists and whether he desires to work like this is the real question.

Look, I'm not interested in this. Please don't give up here. Let's talk about processes, shall we?

I find that a little (a lot) hard to believe. They didn't record any of this? No, only one small tribe in the corner of the middle east reported this. And you would have to move pretty fast (Noah's descendants) to cover the previous human settlements. Short term memory loss? The story apparently just vanished when you crossed certain border lines. No, its more likely a story based on a local flood. (Epic of Gilgamesh)

Arguments from incredulity are weak. Understand that the loss of information inherent in the passage of a hundred human generations is severe. We've no doubt lost (or have yet to discover) a lot of the texts of this culture.

 

[Orogeny]

Every animal breeding incestuously from two animals to repopulate the planet would cause some serious issues.

If the two animals share as little genetic material as possible (that is, they represent the extremes of genetic variation within their species), would we expect a severe decrease in genetic diversity? Why?

And the fossil thing only applies if you are a creationist.

Then I guess it doesn't.

And also, the animals spreading out is useless if they can't swim. How did the diverse amount of animals get to the different island and continents?

I don't know. That point requires further investigation.

 

[Insane_Duck]

If the two animals share as little genetic material as possible (that is, they represent the extremes of genetic variation within their species), would we expect a severe decrease in genetic diversity? Why?

There is a reason that humans (and some animals) have evolved an aversion to incest. It causes a large amount of problems for their offspring. We see nothing like this at all. Especially not on a global scale.

I don't know. That point requires further investigation.

Not really. The only way we could get back to the exact same state (pre-flood) so quickly would take some serious God magic. I'm still not convinced.

 

[AV1611VET]

The only way we could get back to the exact same state (pre-flood) so quickly would take some serious God magic. I'm still not convinced.

Try calling it a "miracle" then and see if that helps.

 

[Orogeny]

There is a reason that humans (and some animals) have evolved an aversion to incest. It causes a large amount of problems for their offspring. We see nothing like this at all. Especially not on a global scale.

That didn't answer either of my questions.

Not really. The only way we could get back to the exact same state (pre-flood) so quickly would take some serious God magic. I'm still not convinced.

But you do not know that this is a fact. This is a wonderful example of the God of the Gaps.

 

[Insane_Duck]

My friend. Maybe I haven't been clear. I am trying to show you that a global flood is possible with a minimum of 'supernaturality'. You'll note that I'm not imparting any of my own supernaturality, so why are you so insistent that there should be some? Do you just want me to say GODDIDIT that badly?

Regardless of what natural process he worked through, GOD did DOIT. Why would we think it happened at all

Explained in previous post. Also, extraterrestrial water, as from one or several well-timed comets, could theoretically contribute a part of the water. That would be quite a stretch, though, and I'm not terribly comfortable with that.

I wouldn't be. Do you have any source on this enough water to cover the earth claim?

Look, I'm not interested in this. Please don't give up here. Let's talk about processes, shall we?

Why? If we find it impossible what is the point? Or if we find it possible? There is still no speaking to whether it did happen.

Arguments from incredulity are weak. Understand that the loss of information inherent in the passage of a hundred human generations is severe. We've no doubt lost (or have yet to discover) a lot of the texts of this culture.[/quote]
One hundred? You said they repopulated, and they must have spread far and fast in order for us to see as little interruption as we do. It seriously only survived in the oral tradition of one small (not particularly literate I understand) tribe? I don't see this as viable at all.

 

[Insane_Duck]

That didn't answer either of my questions.

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^ This is what would happen. We don't see that.

But you do not know that this is a fact. This is a wonderful example of the God of the Gaps.

You are making the claim that it would be possible by natural processes. (otherwise why are we having this conversation) This is a flaw in your arguement. If you call any GODDIDIT "god of the gaps" and you can't present an alternative, then while it doesn't prove that there was not flood, it proves that your claim is lacking evidence.

P.S. Still working my way down to the other post.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Try calling it a "miracle" then and see if that helps.

Not helping. Orogeny is trying to prove the flood happened by all natural processes.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Sure, if you make the pretty hefty assumption that my one example is the only way that specimens could be preserved. That's a big assumption.

I fail to see others. You are making the claim (could have happened by natural processes) you have to account for this sort of thing.

Yes. Keep in mind that the ocean basins were not nearly so deep upon initiation of the flood. It was not until the ocean floors began to subside into the void left by evacuation of the 'waters of the deep' that our oceans began to develop there current capacity.

Source?

Generally the driest areas (the continental altiplano, the planes, etc.) are not environments in which we preserve fossils. The bodies would have decayed away or been eaten. The vast majority of fossils are preserved in aqueous environments.

Fair enough. I don't have enough knowledge to continue with this line of reasoning.

There were significant currents? Do you have evidence of this, such as flood-derived sedimentary deposits or flood-related scour channels?

What causes currents in the ocean today? It would be a giant ocean effected by the same forces.

Really? I said earlier that we would see these (erosion/mineral deposits), but you said I need evidence? No, because we don't see them it's evidence against the flood...

Who would learn a lesson from everybody just BOOM dying? He works in mysterious ways. Anyway, you're making a philosophical argument, and an argument from incredulity at that.

Really? The whole thing was to teach Noah a lesson? There's no better way to do that? I still contend it's folklore in the back alleys of the middle east.

 

[Insane_Duck]

His ability to use these processes is not in debate. Whether or not he used them, as well as which were used is the debate. But if you just wanna say GODDIDIT, don't you think that's kind of a cop-out?

(Below is important)

Here is my issue. If neither of us can say GODDIDIT... And it's an argument from ignorance when I say you can't provide evidence of a way it could of happened by natural processes, what do you think is going on?

You can't just make claims about an event that happened through known processes, then when you are called for lack of proof, you say "just because we don't know how it happens doesn't mean it couldn't..." That's... just wow.

What would you have me do to falsify your claim?

 

[AV1611VET]

Not helping. Orogeny is trying to prove the flood happened by all natural processes.

Wouldn't the earth have to be hiding another Pacific Ocean somewhere?

 

[Insane_Duck]

Wouldn't the earth have to be hiding another Pacific Ocean somewhere?

Nope, apparently there are secret ocean craters... (still waiting for a source on that...)

Oddly enough I would agree with you here...

 

[AV1611VET]

Wouldn't the earth have to be hiding another Pacific Ocean somewhere?

Nope...

Oddly enough I would agree with you here...

Now, you're talking like a scientist.

Is that a YES or a NO?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Now, you're talking like a scientist.

Is that a YES or a NO?

You don't know what "nope" means, AV?