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No such thing as free will.

Skala

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Most Non Calvinists know a far lot more about Calvinism than Calvinist know about Arminianism.

This is literally impossible.

Why?

Because Calvinism (as far as TULIP is concerned) is a direct denial of and rejection of Arminianism. Thus, if one understands TULIP, he, by necessity, also understands what he is rejecting: Arminianism.

TULIP was never penned as a standalone doctrine. It only came about as a denial of Arminianism. TULIP is not a positive assertion of doctrine, but a negative refutation of Arminianism.

Thus it is impossible to understand TULIP without also understanding Arminainism. You can't reject something without understanding what you are rejecting.
 
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Skala

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Before becoming a Calvinist, the Berean Call/Dave Hunt was one of my go to sources. I used to listen to the show every Saturday on XM. Your argument is invalid. And my point stands

You just sent a shiver down my spine :)
 
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Arcoe

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Not true. Almost every Calvinist was a synergist. Not true the other way around.

Basic premise of synergism: man is pretty bad off. God does something to make them aware/awake/alert. Then man can decide whether or not to repent and believe.

If almost every Calvinist was a synergist at one time, when and why did they freely choose to become a monergist?

Your definition is pretty close. What do you think God does to make us aware/awake/alert? You also left out man's cooperation with God.
 
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Arcoe

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May I add... we are conceived in sin. Before we are born to make a choice for good or bad. If conceived in sin and by nature, children of wrath, then how is it we are capable of making a righteous choice for Christ on earth apart from Christ? That which is conceived in evil cannot choose good. Evil produces evil and good produces good.


I asked you earlier how is it that you could carry out God's command to not murder before you were born again, and I didn't get a response. Maybe you can tell me now how you kept this command of God in your evil, old nature.

If good produces good, how is it that God's creation (us) are evil at birth? This is in effect calling God evil.


Jesus is the only One who was not conceived in sin (no having a human father) as we all know. Since no sin nature was imparted to Him, then He alone is sinless at conception. He alone makes the Righteous CHOICE for those whom He foreknew and ordained.



Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"
 
Job 14:4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (This is why we must be born from above and until this happens, no choice for Christ can be made of the person)
 
Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.


Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
[/quote]

No, we do not make a choice here on earth as to where we will spend eternity. The wages of sin (recompense of sin) produces death. That which is born already dead cannot choose to "will" itself to life. Only Life Himself can have mercy and do this.

 
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Arcoe

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May I add... we are conceived in sin. Before we are born to make a choice for good or bad. If conceived in sin and by nature, children of wrath, then how is it we are capable of making a righteous choice for Christ on earth apart from Christ? That which is conceived in evil cannot choose good. Evil produces evil and good produces good.


I asked you earlier how is it that you could carry out God's command to not murder before you were born again, and I didn't get a response. Maybe you can explain now how you kept this command of God in your evil, old nature.

If good produces good, how is it that God's creation (us) are evil at birth? This is in effect calling God evil.


Jesus is the only One who was not conceived in sin (no having a human father) as we all know. Since no sin nature was imparted to Him, then He alone is sinless at conception. He alone makes the Righteous CHOICE for those whom He foreknew and ordained.


Then those He foreknew and ordained are given the choice to sin by Jesus? Who gave you the choice to not murder before you were born again?


Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"
 
Job 14:4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (This is why we must be born from above and until this happens, no choice for Christ can be made of the person)
 
Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.


Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.


If you can explain to me how a newborn can lie, I will accept babies are evil at birth. If you read a little farther in Psalm 58, you will see God will break the teeth of these 'supposed' liars.


No, we do not make a choice here on earth as to where we will spend eternity. The wages of sin (recompense of sin) produces death. That which is born already dead cannot choose to "will" itself to life. Only Life Himself can have mercy and do this.

What is 'choose life' or 'choose death'? No one has said a person wills himself to life. A person, from his will, chooses life, which is Jesus Himself.
 
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pshun2404

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May I add... we are conceived in sin.

You may...please quote the scripture and not Psalm 51:5 since this does not say what you are saying, it says David was conceived in iniquity, which would be his parents iniquity...those naughty parents...however that does not make David or us born condemned!

God makes the inner person. Children are a heritage from the Lord...lots of them are blessing (according to the word)...giving us a bunch of condemned little devils would not be a blessing...but we all will sin on our own meriting our just condemnation without Christ.

Paul
 
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Hammster

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Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You go to great lengths to both avoid answering questions and to be insulting. A few responses of yours are bordering on flaming (Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.). As a mod I will let you know that these types of comments aren't taken lightly.
 
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Hammster

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If almost every Calvinist was a synergist at one time, when and why did they freely choose to become a monergist?
for me, Calvinism is the theological view that is best defended by scripture. I was a synergist because that is what I was taught in church.
Your definition is pretty close. What do you think God does to make us aware/awake/alert? You also left out man's cooperation with God.
I thought mans cooperation was indicated in the term (synergism). As for what God does (from a synergist point if view), I've yet to get a satisfactory answer. I tried asking you in another thread, but all I got were some responses about Onstar and Jeopardy.
 
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Arcoe

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for me, Calvinism is the theological view that is best defended by scripture. I was a synergist because that is what I was taught in church.

I thought mans cooperation was indicated in the term (synergism). As for what God does (from a synergist point if view), I've yet to get a satisfactory answer. I tried asking you in another thread, but all I got were some responses about Onstar and Jeopardy.

Let me know the specific question you had. I'll get out of my car and turn the TV off. :D
 
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jasonsloss

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Is God free, then?

In heaven, when we are glorified, will we be free?

this depends on what you consider real freedom...

the freedom we will experience in Heaven is to truly be able to worship God without any limitations that we have now...
 
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jasonsloss

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Question: "Monergism vs. synergism – which view is correct?"

Answer: This topic has been hotly debated within the church for centuries. It is not exaggerating to say that this debate concerns the very heart of the gospel itself. First, let us define the two terms. When we talk about monergism vs. synergism, theologically speaking, we’re talking about who brings about our salvation. Monergism, which comes from a compound Greek word that means “to work alone,” is the view that God alone effects our salvation. This view is held primarily by Calvinistic and Reformed traditions and is closely tied to what is known as the “doctrines of grace.” Synergism, which also comes from a compound Greek word meaning “to work together,” is the view that God works together with us in effecting salvation. While monergism is closely associated with John Calvin, synergism is associated with Jacob Arminius, and his views have greatly shaped the modern evangelical landscape. Calvin and Arminius aren’t the creators of these views, but are the best-known proponents of Calvinism and Arminianism.

These two views were heavily debated in the early 17th century when followers of Arminius published The Five Articles of the Remonstrance (FAR), a document stating where their theology differed from that of Calvin and his followers. The pivotal point in this debate is between the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election vs. the Arminian doctrine of conditional election. If one believes election is unconditional, then one will tend toward a monergistic view of salvation. Conversely, if one holds to a view that election is based on God’s foreknowledge of who would believe in Him, then one tends toward the synergistic view.

The view of unconditional election is stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith: “Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace”(WCF III.5, emphasis added). As we can see, unconditional election teaches that God’s choice of the elect is based on the good pleasure of His will and nothing more. Furthermore, His choice in election is not based on His foreseeing a person’s faith or any good works or that person's persevering in either faith or good works.

Two classic biblical passages support this doctrine. The first is Ephesians 1:4-5, “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this passage, we were chosen by God to be in Christ—holy and blameless—before the world was created, and this choice was based on the “purpose of God’s will.” The other passage is Romans 9:16, “It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.” God’s choice is not dependent on anything we do or believe in, but is made solely at the discretion of God’s mercy.

The essence of Calvinism, and the monergistic argument, is that God is in the business of actually saving people and not merely making them savable. Because all people are born in sin and because of their fallen nature (total depravity), they will always reject God; therefore, God must act in saving the elect without any pre-condition on their part such as faith. In order to bestow the blessings of salvation and eternal life to the elect, God must first atone for their sins (limited atonement). This grace and salvation must then be applied to the elect, and thus the Holy Spirit applies the effects of salvation to the elect by regenerating their spirits and drawing them into salvation (irresistible grace). Finally, those whom God has saved He will preserve to the end (perseverance of the saints). From beginning to end, salvation (in all its aspects) is a work of God and God alone—monergism! The point is that actual people are being saved—the elect. Consider Romans 8:28-30. In that passage we see that there is a group of people whom God “calls according to his purpose.” These people are identified as “those who love God.” These people are also those who in vv. 29-30 are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified. God is the one who is moving this group of people (those who love God, the elect) from foreknowledge to glorification, and none are lost along the way.

In support of the synergistic argument, let’s turn our attention to the Five Articles of the Remonstrance: “That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: ‘He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,’ and according to other passages of Scripture also” (FAR, Article I, emphasis added). Here we see that salvation is conditional upon the faith and perseverance of the individual. What conditional election does is place the determining factor of our salvation squarely upon us, on our ability to choose Jesus and remain in Him. Now Arminians will claim that our ability to choose Jesus is the result of a universal grace that God first gives to all people that offsets the effects of the fall and allows man to choose to accept or reject Christ. In other words, God must do something to even make the choice of salvation possible, but in the end it is our choice which saves us. The Scripture reference that Article I supplies certainly affirms that those who believe have eternal life and that those who reject do not have eternal life, so it would seem there is some scriptural support for this doctrine. Thus, the synergistic argument claims that God makes salvation possible, but it is our choice that makes salvation actual.

So, while monergism claims that God is both a necessary and sufficient condition for our salvation, synergism will agree that God is a necessary condition, but will deny His sufficiency. Our free will plus God’s activity is what makes it sufficient. Logically speaking, we should be able to see the flaw in the synergistic argument—that God doesn’t actually save anyone. This places the responsibility for salvation on us, for it is we who have to make salvation real by placing our faith in Christ. If God doesn’t actually save anyone, then it is possible that no one will be saved. If God doesn’t actually save anyone, how do we explain such strong passages as Romans 8:28-30? All of the Greek verbs in that passage are aorist/indicative, meaning that the action described therein is complete; there is no potentiality implied in that passage. From God’s perspective, salvation has been effected. Further, Article IV of the Remonstrance says the grace of God is resistible, and Article V asserts that those who have chosen the grace of God can also fall from that grace and “return to this present evil world” becoming “devoid of grace.” This view contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture in regard to the eternal security of the believer.

If that is the case, how then do we respond to the biblical support for conditional election (cf. John 3:36)? There is no denying that faith is necessary to make salvation a "done deal" in our lives, but where does faith fall in the order of salvation (Ordo Salutis)? Again, if we consider Romans 8:29-30, we see a logical progression of salvation. Justification, which is typically in view when considering salvation by faith, is fourth on that list preceded by foreknowledge, predestination, and calling. Now calling can be broken down into the following: regeneration, evangelism, faith and repentance. In other words, the "call" (referred to as “effectual calling” by Reformed theologians) first must involve being born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). Next comes the preaching of the gospel (Romans 10:14-17), followed by faith and repentance. However, before any of that can take place, it must be logically preceded by foreknowledge and predestination.

This brings us to the question of foreknowledge. Arminians will claim that foreknowledge refers to God foreknowing the faith of the elect. If that is the case, then God’s electing us is no longer based on the “good purpose of his will,” but rather on our being able to choose Him, despite our fallen condition which, according to Romans 8:7 is hostile to God and incapable of doing so. The Arminian view of foreknowledge also contradicts the clear teaching of the passages mentioned above in support of unconditional election (Ephesians 1:4-5 and Romans 9:16). This view essentially robs God of His sovereignty and places the responsibility for salvation squarely on the shoulders of creatures who are wholly incapable of saving themselves.

In conclusion, the weight of the logical evidence and the weight of the biblical evidence supports the monergistic view of salvation—God is the author and perfector of our salvation (Hebrews 12:2). He who began a good work in us will perfect it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6). Monergism not only has a profound impact on how one views salvation, but on evangelism as well. If salvation is solely based on God’s saving grace, then there is no room for us to boast, and all the glory goes to Him (Ephesians 2:8-9). In addition, if God actually saves people, then our evangelistic efforts must bear fruit because God has promised to save the elect. Monergism equals greater glory to God!
 
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Hammster

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Let me know the specific question you had. I'll get out of my car and turn the TV off. :D

I haven't gotten real answers to specific questions yet. Not sure why I should expect anything different now.
 
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cygnusx1

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Do you also doubt man has the ability to turn to wickedness? Do you not see in the passage that it is not God causing us to turn to wickedness?





Old Testament people of God had a clearer understanding of Gods sovereignty over human wills than many current Christians do

Isaiah 63:17


New International Version (©1984)

Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.


The Lord is behind all things

Ezekiel 20:26 I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'
 
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Shulamite

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Old Testament people of God had a clearer understanding of Gods sovereignty over human wills than many current Christians do

Isaiah 63:17


New International Version (©1984)

Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.


The Lord is behind all things

Ezekiel 20:26 I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'

Yes... I have had these VERY same thoughts. The Lord showed Isaiah and many of the prophets, including King David, His sovereignty over the human heart. These scriptures show without a doubt that God channels the human heart where He WILLS. I haved used the above-scripture from Isaiah many times and yet it gets argued with and avoided!

Isaiah understood, by God's grace, that if we wander, stumble or don't fear God as we should, that He has decreed it for a purpose for His own glory. And since He caues all things to work together for good for those who are His, then even when He hardens our hearts or decrees that we stumble, He is still working it out for our good and His glory!
 
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Skala

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this depends on what you consider real freedom...

the freedom we will experience in Heaven is to truly be able to worship God without any limitations that we have now...

I consider real freedom to be free from sin so that sin is an impossibility.

But some on these forums beleive true freedom is defined as the possibility to sin

Therefore, according to their definition, only sinful, non-glorified humans are truly free. Even God himself, nor the saints in heaven are free, according to their definition.
 
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FredVB

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There is perfect unity of Jesus Christ, the incarnation of Logos, the Word who is with God and is God, with the Father, and with the Spirit of God, as one being, the supreme one, that is to be seen. Yahweh God is perfect and good, and he is infinite in his being. All his characteristics are absolute and without limit. And so with that perfect goodness there is absolute justice and there is absolute and unlimited love as well. With knowing all things, he made all creation with knowing of the rebellion to him with the fall to sin that would come with that. With justice all sin would be dealt with, with such great love he would provide for atonement and bear penalty for sin himself, through the incarnation with coming among us living perfectly to die on the cross, for salvation to any and all that would truly believe in him for salvation as Lord and savior.


It seems that you are saying that the Cross was a reactionary decision of God (because He knew we would sin), and not the intention from the get go (to bring Him the most glory). Is that about right?

That is not a term I would think of using for it. If knowing his plan from eternity and with it known in beginning creation which would include us is what would be called reactionary, then so be it. I do not think of his great love for us diminishing his will of bringing glory to himself. Both are involved, completely and consistently, without compromise.
 
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Hammster

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That is not a term I would think of using for it. If knowing his plan from eternity and with it known in beginning creation which would include us is what would be called reactionary, then so be it. I do not think of his great love for us diminishing his will of bringing glory to himself. Both are involved, completely and consistently, without compromise.

Either the Cross was plan A (God would, by necessity need man to sin so that He could be must glorified on the Cross), or plan B (God would hope that man would sin).
 
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cygnusx1

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Either the Cross was plan A (God would, by necessity need man to sin so that He could be must glorified on the Cross), or plan B (God would hope that man would sin).

What about plan AA , planning just Adam , hoping he wouldn't sin !

Then that really would entail a second plan....

I go with plan A as Christ crucified because He is before all things , He has the preeminence and all things were made for him . Including the failure of Adam.

If even John the Baptist recognised his own diminishing so that HE , Christ would advance , how much more the first Adam must diminish so that Christ can advance . (Increase , decrease)
 
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