No Such Thing as Atheism.

[Freodin]

Some so vocally it makes one wonder why they are so afraid of something/one they claim to not believe in.

As the "more serious" in my post was aimed at atheists talking about a very distinct theistic deity, mostly in context of the relevant religion in question... in contrast to theists talking about a very vague and general "first cause" or "whatever you consider most important", I don't thing "being afraid" is a fitting concept here.

But I get what you were aiming at.

Other than that, I am content to let atheist be what they are. Arguing with them, trying to convince them etc generally prove fruitless. But my actions and attitudes toward them are no different than towards any other person - I will act in love and let my actions speak for me and my beliefs.

It might be my humanistic bias getting the better of me there... but I never saw someones actions speak for their beliefs.

I expect quite a lot from humans, and sometimes I am pleasently surprised that people fulfil these expectations... even if they are Christians.

 

[Eudaimonist]

atheism is of the devil

Don't you think that it can come from not having convincing reasons to think that a God exists? Why must a devil be involved?

I've always found it amazing when Christians don't surmise that atheism could just be an honest mistake. There must somehow be a plot involved.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Celticflower]

It might be my humanistic bias getting the better of me there... but I never saw someones actions speak for their beliefs.

If my belief system says I should love my neighbor/fellow human and I act with and out of love toward others with no thought of reward - then my actions speak for my beliefs. Sometimes others may not know the motivation for another's actions, but it does not negate the motivation. And if someone should ask "why do you....?" then an answer will be given and the reasons behind the action revealed.

 

[Freodin]

If my belief system says I should love my neighbor/fellow human and I act with and out of love toward others with no thought of reward - then my actions speak for my beliefs. Sometimes others may not know the motivation for another's actions, but it does not negate the motivation. And if someone should ask "why do you....?" then an answer will be given and the reasons behind the action revealed.

I have to clarify that I really mean no offense... it is just the way how I see it, how it appears to me.

I think that you act with love toward others, because you are a good person. If you would need a "belief system" that told you that you should act love your neighbor, you wouldn't be a good person... and it would show sooner or later, regardless of your belief system.

So when you "act with love", it is simply what I expect from other (decent) human beings. I wouldn't see it as "speaking for your belief system"... because it is what I expect from others... regardless of their belief systems.

In fact, I see that in action every day. I know a number of nice, polite, happy - loving - Muslim. I know a number of loving, helpful, great Christians. And - expectations or not - I know a number of not-so-nice Christians and Muslim. I attribute their behaviour to their personality... not Christianity or Islam.

I understand that many people see that different... I have also met a number of people who told me what a good person I was... and who were astonished when they found I am an atheist.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Sometimes I think we atheists take the concept of deities more serious than the theists.

Because they make the claim this puppet master is somehow pulling the strings by magic that cannot and has not been verified. And we're supposed to accept this claim.

That's not even the part that chafes me

What makes me mad is people will start treating others differently because of this unseen entity. They even have laws based on its decree like "kill the sodomites"

To put it bluntly it would be as harmless as Santa Claus if the theists didn't take it just as serious

 

[TillICollapse]

To distinguish God from something as mundane as a rock rolling downhill.

God becomes an entirely superfluous concept if it is simply associated with the natural world. There is no need for the concept anymore.


eudaimonia,

Mark

This ... I have never understood this line of thought, which has caused me to go in circles in a conversation with the other person ... typically because it involves the term "supernatural" as well as a person's expectations of what a "god" should or should not be.

A rock rolling down a hill would be mundane. Yet if someone's definition of "God" matched a rock perfectly (which could be considered ridiculous, or perhaps extreme), then it's easy to see how such a term is superfluous. Or unnecessary. And yet, it's "just a word". So in that context, having multiple words for "rock" in various languages is superfluous. And yet, we still have multiple ways to say "rock" because we don't have a single language that everyone speaks. So what would be the big deal about adding one more word to describe "rock" ?

So now present something not quite as mundane as a rock rolling down the hill. The "universe itself" and those whom equate it with "God". If the universe itself fits someone exact definition of what a "God" is, then again it's rather superfluous. But the universe itself is not "mundane". And we still do not have a single global language in use by all societies. So again, what's "another word" ? Why not ?

And neither a rock, nor the "universe itself" is arguably recognized as "supernatural" at this point in time. So I don't see why in some contexts, the definition of "God" need be something supernatural. To me, this is born out of the expectation that are already within our own biases that "God" should be "supernatural".

For example ... an extraterrestrial species with sufficiently advanced technology may be indistinguishable from something we may consider a "god", yet be entirely within the realm of the natural. Is it then superfluous ? So while I see your point, to say, "There is no need for the concept anymore," I don't see where that's necessarily true. It depends on context, and that context may not require "supernatural" (trying to avoid discussing that term specifically).

atheism is of the devil

Is it allowed on these forums to make the same statement regarding Christianity or one of it's varieties ?

If my belief system says I should love my neighbor/fellow human and I act with and out of love toward others with no thought of reward - then my actions speak for my beliefs. Sometimes others may not know the motivation for another's actions, but it does not negate the motivation. And if someone should ask "why do you....?" then an answer will be given and the reasons behind the action revealed.

Someone may do something loving towards another, with malicious motivation, yet the one on the receiving end may not recognize it as such. Does the action speak for the belief in such instances ?

 

[Belk]

Some so vocally it makes one wonder why they are so afraid of something/one they claim to not believe in.

I think you will find it is less fear of something we don't believe in and more fear of the actions of some the more rabid followers.

Other than that, I am content to let atheist be what they are. Arguing with them, trying to convince them etc generally prove fruitless. But my actions and attitudes toward them are no different than towards any other person - I will act in love and let my actions speak for me and my beliefs.

 

[durangodawood]

Don't you think that it can come from not having convincing reasons to think that a God exists? Why must a devil be involved?

I've always found it amazing when Christians don't surmise that atheism could just be an honest mistake. There must somehow be a plot involved.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Its the worldview: that events "down here" are guided from above, or derailed by the cosmic adversary.

 

[Loudmouth]

Hi,

It takes big nuts to wander in and call all atheists that they are
mistaken about themselves and the universe.

Atheists either are:
1. Remaining ignorant about themselves and their true position in the cosmos.
These believers fall under the accommodating wings of 2 below since they
donot really understand science for themselves.

What evidence are we ignoring?

2. Who are scientific and can understand and accept the limitations of an
absolute materialism philosophy.

What would be the purpose of an unlimited philosophy where everything is true, even something made up at the drop of a hat?

The God of Absolute materialism becomes the god since that is the
mechanism of causation.

What "God of Absolute materialism"? I am unaware that such a deity exists. Where is your evidence for this deity?

3 Or who perhaps otherwise are avoiding stuff or are being
insincere for whatever reason.

I don't believe that billions of theists are being insincere. I don't see why atheists can't be extended that simple gesture.

4.Perhaps you really do believe in the God of no causation but I think we know
more than that.

Maybe you believe in an invisible pink unicorn that farted the universe into existence.

Maybe you believe in the flying spaghetti monster.

Maybe it isn't nice to tell other people what they really believe in.

I have learnt atheists do not appreciate the likes of me poking around in their stuff very much. The faster and more vehement the response - the bigger the attitude.

You are poking around in your own stuff and biases.

 

[Celticflower]

Someone may do something loving towards another, with malicious motivation, yet the one on the receiving end may not recognize it as such. Does the action speak for the belief in such instances ?

I cannot speak for another and I did say that if someone were to ask why I did this or that, that an answer would be given. If someone does something with a malicious motivation they will have to answer for it at some point. I only know what motivates me. And I do realize that some people twist religious teachings to their own ends. This is wrong no matter what belief system or faith path it is.

If you don't feel the need for a religion/belief system/faith to help guide you through this life, that's ok. For some of us it gives us a reason for being here in the first place. Maybe our brains are just wired different. Doesn't make one of us better than the other - just different.

 

[LuisMarco9]

Hi Everyone
Just wanted to share this w/ you, related to the present topic.
From the URANTIA epochal divine revelation:

http://www.urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p195.htm
195:7.10 The sincere effort of man to become a mechanist* represents the tragic phenomenon of that man’s futile effort to commit intellectual and moral suicide. But he cannot do it.​

* me here: i.e. an atheist.
Enjoy reading The URANTIA Book!!!.
.lm., 31, Mexico City

 

[pshun2404]

Because they make the claim this puppet master is somehow pulling the strings by magic that cannot and has not been verified. And we're supposed to accept this claim.

That's not even the part that chafes me

What makes me mad is people will start treating others differently because of this unseen entity. They even have laws based on its decree like "kill the sodomites"

To put it bluntly it would be as harmless as Santa Claus if the theists didn't take it just as serious

You are mistaking Christianity for Calvinism...most do not nor have ever believed He is a grand puppet master pulling every string. If He is then sin and evil IS His doing.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Blind post:

 

[GrimKingGrim]

If He is then sin and evil IS His doing.

If everything is his creation, then that is his doing.

 

[Ken-1122]

.Belief is how we run our life. Having faith that our bus will be at the stop,
tht we will still have a job come Monday, that the sun will rise tomorrow.
These are 'True beliefs' but do not always come true as we know.

What you call “true beliefs” I think most call “logic and reason”.

Then there is something called 'false beliefs'
and I put some atheists and other adherents in this category.
False beliefs tend to be mixed in with true beliefs to make them more
plausible. EG. My bus will be at the stop, the sun will rise tomorrow AND
JC might come with rapture and take me under his wing for eternity.
Or I will have a job tomorrow and there is no God!

That sounds like something you just made up. I doubt you could name one atheists who thinks that way

Skeptics will argue some BS about we cannot prove a no belief but do they really hold that position?

Actually they would say “you cannot prove a negative” the reason they say this is because it is often next to impossible to do so.

Few atheists would be stupid enpugh to consider that there was no causasion in the universe or cosmology The causation they internally hold, becomes the creator or God.

So what caused God? If God doesn’t require a cause, how do you know the Universe requires one?


Ken

 

[Wryetui]

People are just atheists because they don't know what God is. They have an idea of what God can be, they refute that "God" and they become atheists refuting that God. I have never met an atheist that knows theology, patristics, dogmatics, hesychasm, hamartiology, soteriology, eschatology and lots of words that are unknown to most christians out there. When I was an atheist was because I was ignorant, and I am not lying if I say most of the atheists out there are ignorants, because no matter how much you think you know, how much philosophy, how much Richard Dawkins, how much Christopher Hitchens you have read because they are as blind as you.

 

[Eudaimonist]

People are just atheists because they don't know what God is.

Oh, really? Maybe people are just theists because they don't realize all of the reasons why the natural universe is sufficient unto itself.

You are asking me to assume that your judgment is superior to any atheist's judgment. I don't see you as infallible, so I have no good reason to think that you are correct in this. You're basically saying that "you'd agree with my conclusion if you only knew what I know". That's a logical fallacy. Someone might comprehend your concept of God and yet not conclude that such a being exists.

They have an idea of what God can be, they refute that "God" and they become atheists refuting that God.

Atheism isn't about refuting. It is about lacking belief. I don't believe in the existence of any God, so I am an atheist. I don't have to refute every imaginable God.

I have never met an atheist that knows theology, patristics, dogmatics, hesychasm, hamartiology, soteriology, eschatology and lots of words that are unknown to most christians out there.

I have read some theology, but I will admit that I am not an expert in all of those things. However, that doesn't matter. You can't know that I would be a theist if I was an expert in those fields.

When I was an atheist was because I was ignorant, and I am not lying if I say most of the atheists out there are ignorants, because no matter how much you think you know, how much philosophy, how much Richard Dawkins, how much Christopher Hitchens you have read because they are as blind as you.

I'm sorry, but your journey to theism doesn't mean that God exists. You may be the one who has been blinded by theology.

All you are saying in this post is "I'm right because I'm right because I'm right". I'm unimpressed.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wryetui]

Oh, really? Maybe people are just theists because they don't realize all of the reasons why the natural universe is sufficient unto itself.



Atheism isn't about refuting. It is about lacking belief. I don't believe in the existence of any God, so I am an atheist. I don't have to refute every imaginable God.



I have read some theology, but I will admit that I am not an expert in all of those things. However, that doesn't matter. You can't know that I would be a theist if I was an expert in those fields.



I'm sorry, but your journey to theism doesn't mean that God exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

So what if you have read some theology? You have read a newspaper too, since when "reading theology" makes you closer to God? Theology is done with a prayer rope, not with books. And it depends a lot more on what "theology" you have read.

In order to don't believe in a God, you must have received the idea of God, studied it and refuted, so that's why you are an atheist. If you didn't receive the idea of a God then you are an atheist out of ignorance, as I said, because you don't know what God is in order to know Him, which is very logical, because I don't believe in, let's say, Philip Morris from the UK until I meet him and I see He exists.

I am sorry but neither you journey to atheism means that He doesn't exist.

 

[Eudaimonist]

So what if you have read some theology? You have read a newspaper too, since when "reading theology" makes you closer to God? Theology is done with a prayer rope, not with books. And it depends a lot more on what "theology" you have read.

Strike one!

Theology is studied through reading. It isn't about being "closer to God". It's about understanding the arguments that purport to lead to the rational conclusion that a God of such-and-such characteristics exists.

The Wikipedia entry's intro is reasonably accurate:

Theology is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and of the nature of religious ideas...

You have shot your credibility out of the water. You don't even know what theology is.

In order to don't believe in a God, you must have received the idea of God, studied it and refuted, so that's why you are an atheist.

Strike two!

I don't have to have done any such thing. All I have to do is lack belief in any God concept. Sure I have encountered a few, but study and refutation aren't required to lack belief. I have never bothered to build a case to refute the existence of Big Foot, but I still don't believe in the existence of Big Foot.

If you didn't receive the idea of a God then you are an atheist out of ignorance, as I said, because you don't know what God is in order to know Him, which is very logical, because I don't believe in, let's say, Philip Morris from the UK until I meet him and I see He exists.

Strike three!

I would only be an atheist "out of ignorance" if none of my God-concepts were reasonably accurate. You don't know that this is the case.

I am sorry but neither you journey to atheism means that He doesn't exist.

I never said that, did I?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wryetui]

.