No stones to cast?

[Digit]

Good luck finding that god then.

Regards Climb8b.

And this is why Nadiine replied the way she did. You guys, come here and ask us loaded questions, and then when we give you true and honest answers, from our lives and experiences you don't accept them. Why, dear climb, are you even here then? Are you like all the others who think they've found some magic-bullet to shoot down Christianity and are then disheartened to hear that not only have we heard it more times than we can count already, but they're mistaken anyhow?

In fact, didn't I say this would happen earlier?

I can for sure give you reasons, which will probably be based on my own experience, yet will you accept them or will you pretend to know better and that I am imagining it all, which is what is commonly thrown back?

Apparently accorinding to your last reply, 'that God' is one that doesn't exist. So I must henceforth be imagining it.

I will repeat myself again climb:

The problem climb, isn't in what is presented to you, it's you. Plain and simple. Either you have a desire to know God, or you don't. Period.

All the best, keep well.
Digit

 

[climb8b]

I have a desire to know god, if there is a god!

Why would i desire to know something that doesent exist?

I am looking for evidence of god, and all i find is evidence of religion and belief in god.

 

[Digit]

I have a desire to know god, if there is a god!

Why would i desire to know something that doesent exist?

I am looking for evidence of god, and all i find is evidence of religion and belief in god.

Can you clarify this for me?

You have a desire to know something, that you don't believe exists? Is that what you said? Your basis of operation is that God doesn't exist. You are operating from the viewpoint of that being a known, is that right?

Digit

 

[Notwhatmyparentscalledme]

Just suppose for a second,pause,take a time out, give sometime to a thought, that perhaps all you have learnt in this world you have been born into, is false,flip flop,switcharoonie and I will give thought to anything you propose.

We are indoctrinated from birth.

God is real but not as you know him Jim.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I have a desire to know god, if there is a god!

Why would i desire to know something that doesent exist?

I am looking for evidence of god, and all i find is evidence of religion and belief in god.

Actually...you appear to be looking for a god that suits you. The God will not be put into a box like that.

 

[Nienor]

*Reminder*

Debating is NOT allowed in QNC. If you continue to debate this thread will be moved to General Apologetics

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Nice hat, Nienor!

 

[Digit]

Nienor, I thought we were allowed to respond to questions/issues raised by the OP, just not debate with each other?

Or maybe I have that wrong...

Cheers,
Digit

 

[Nienor]

Nienor, I thought we were allowed to respond to questions/issues raised by the OP, just not debate with each other?

Or maybe I have that wrong...

Cheers,
Digit

Responding to the OP is great, however many of the posts are just getting too close to debating. If there is a problem, the thread will just be moved, not closed

Nice hat, Nienor!

Thanks

 

[enigma2007]

Hey, sorry to have to ask this question, has no one actually read the definition of sin given in the OP

1a the breaking of divine or moral law, esp. by a conscious act

OR moral law, you can break a moral law (regardless of where anyone thinks the moral law came from) and be commiting a sin. You don't have to believe God exists to break a moral law. Therefore according to your definition , yes you can commit a sin, even if you don't beleive Gods law applies to you, even if, in fact, God doesn't exist at all.

 

[infaile]

I'd like to second and highlight this post.

Hey, sorry to have to ask this question, has no one actually read the definition of sin given in the OP

1a the breaking of divine or moral law, esp. by a conscious act

OR moral law, you can break a moral law (regardless of where anyone thinks the moral law came from) and be commiting a sin. You don't have to believe God exists to break a moral law. Therefore according to your definition , yes you can commit a sin, even if you don't beleive Gods law applies to you, even if, in fact, God doesn't exist at all.

Which makes the following post a little irrelevant.

And...in your astute opinion who set the moral law???

Oh yeh...it was your genocidal, violent, oppresive god???

Or was it???

Hello, climb8b, by the way.

Let's agree that divine law is that set by a god, and for the purposes of this particular thread, THE God of the Christian faith.

And moral law is something that one usually associates with one's conscience (note the spelling, everyone!). I think we can also agree that every human has a conscience. Maybe it's a sensitive one. Maybe it's an insensitive one. But we all have one.

I know a lot of non-believers who will say that they have a moral code of ethics, just not a spiritual code of ethics. So morality and spirituality are different, BUT for most Christians, morality and spirituality are intertwined. (That's not the issue here, though.)

So let's stop debating about the differences or similarities between moral and divine law...

If 'sin' is the breaking of EITHER divine or moral law, then yes, climb8b, you can sin even if God's existence cannot be proved.

That help?

 

[infaile]

First of all, i am not a worshiper of Dawkin, and i fully intend to get "wheel of time" by R Jordan, and i will give it a fair go and get back to you personally by PM. I start back at Uni soon so it may be next year depending on my work load and how readable the book is.

I would just like to point out here that Digit was joking with that suggestion.

The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan is not one book, but twelve (at last count, anyway), and they're fantasy novels. (I wouldn't start reading them unless you have a great deal of time and money.)

Digit was making a point that one person can suggest that another person read a certain book, or books, and vice versa, until the cows come home. But unless you are willing to base your decision - to believe (or not to believe) in God - entirely on what other people have written, you will not believe either way.

This is the point Tommy Tenney made in his book The God Chasers:

"When will we learn that if people can be argued into the faith, then they can just as easily be argued out of it as well?"

Nicky Gumbel from The Alpha Course once told a story in which a friend of his asked a hardcore non-believer (after the latter had asked many, many questions about the validity of Christianity, etc.), "If we could answer every one of your questions to your complete satisfaction, would you become a Christian?" The man said, "No."

climb8b, would you truly want to be argued into a faith? Faith is not just a belief; in the context of Christianity it amounts to a change of lifestyle, a change of heart and mind, a change of priorities and a change of behaviour. Perhaps any other 'belief' in any other thing would be okay, based on arguments - I'd be happy being given scientific explanations of why an apple falls when you drop it - but I feel that one's faith is far too important and personal a thing to base on other people's reasons.

The faith spoken of and encouraged by Christ is a personal one, one that relies on experiencing the holy in one's admittedly unholy and sinful life. We can give you all of our reasonings, and we can tell you about all of our experiences with the God in whom we believe, but if you do end up believing just solely on our word, it will be a second-hand and shallow faith.

Blessings,
infaile

 

[infaile]

I have a desire to know god, if there is a god!

Why would i desire to know something that doesent exist?

I am looking for evidence of god, and all i find is evidence of religion and belief in god.

Finally, re: the above quote...

If I look for evidence of gravity, and all I find is evidence of science, and belief in gravity, do I then believe in gravity, or do I keep looking?

There has to be a point at which you say, "I will accept this and believe it." Even my example of gravity requires a little leap of faith. Perhaps we've gotten it wrong, all our measurements and experiments are incorrect, and our understanding of gravity is completely off the mark. It's a small gap in hard 'proof', if you like, but it's there. Even science requires faith.

At what point will you feel sufficiently convinced that religion and belief in God equate to the existence and character of God as He is widely believed to be?

If you cannot specify that point, then your search will go on forever, and nothing we can say or do will ever convince you or even help you get closer. Looking for an answer in facts alone requires that you know the end point of your journey, or else your destination will forever recede from your grasp.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

INicky Gumbel from The Alpha Course once told a story in which a friend of his asked a hardcore non-believer (after the latter had asked many, many questions about the validity of Christianity, etc.), "If we could answer every one of your questions to your complete satisfaction, would you become a Christian?" The man said, "No."

Amen! Excellent point! That's why our goal in evangelism is not necessarily to win an argument...it's to present the truths of the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do with it whatever He will in the hearts of those we present Him to.

 

[climb8b]

Climb8b, would you truly want to be argued into a faith? Faith is not just a belief; in the context of Christianity it amounts to a change of lifestyle, a change of heart and mind, a change of priorities and a change of behaviour. Perhaps any other 'belief' in any other thing would be okay, based on arguments - I'd be happy being given scientific explanations of why an apple falls when you drop it - but I feel that one's faith is far too important and personal a thing to base on other people's reasons.

Okay so i proably wont read Wheel of Time by Jordan.

You are right in saying that i wont be argued into having faith, though i will continue to look for real evidence of God. That is persuasive evidence, that could be statistical proof that prayer works, or scientific proof that Jeasus was raised from the dead. But evidence to me is not that your granny had a NDE, or that your brother leg felt better when you prayed for him, or that your mum prayed for a new job, or any such anecdotal subjective evidence as these examples.

The most persuasive proof that there is not god so far is Christians.

Your faith and the faith of other christians have a massive effect on the world, on politics and on policy in every country there are christians, and other faiths of course. If there is no basis for this faith then we are building our societies and policies on sandy land and not on the solid rock.

If there is no basis for faith why base society on it.

Dear G/Mod: If this is getting too much like a debate then move it, dont delete it. there is nothing offecive in the post and it is not flaming.

 

[Hunterkirk]

It sounds like you have no interesting talking about the matter and your mind is made up. It seems your only trolling for a fight, which it looks like you got it.

Since others have already taking up your bait, why not mention the simple fact that you recognize some behaviors as being wrong to do... like rape, murder, theft, etc. As such you do accept the idea of bad behavior, the reasons for this acceptance is pointless to the discussion as the sources of them can be debated with out end.

Now that you have recognized that their are bad behaviors one should not engage in, just replace the statement "morally wrong" with "a sin" and you have your answer.

 

[Nienor]

Closed for staff review