• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

No One In Heaven part one

KM Richards

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2010
887
32
I'm right here!
✟1,233.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven

At that particular time when Jesus said this...it was true.

Many things in His earthly ministry were done under the Old Covenant...once the New Covenant became effective, things changed for the better because the New Covenant is based on better promises.

Once Jesus rose from the grave and took captivity captive...He led those that were in that holding place known as Abraham's bosom...into Heaven.

Noboy could possibly go to Heaven until AFTER Jesus defeated death, hell, and the grave...because at that point, the New Birth was now available.

Once a person is born again, they go straight to Heaven when they die because they've been washed in the Blood of Jesus and they are perfectly clean and have become new creatures in Christ Jesus
 
Upvote 0

k4c

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2003
4,278
39
Rhode Island
✟4,820.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
At that particular time when Jesus said this...it was true.

Many things in His earthly ministry were done under the Old Covenant...once the New Covenant became effective, things changed for the better because the New Covenant is based on better promises.

Once Jesus rose from the grave and took captivity captive...He led those that were in that holding place known as Abraham's bosom...into Heaven.

Noboy could possibly go to Heaven until AFTER Jesus defeated death, hell, and the grave...because at that point, the New Birth was now available.

Once a person is born again, they go straight to Heaven when they die because they've been washed in the Blood of Jesus and they are perfectly clean and have become new creatures in Christ Jesus

If this were all true then David would also be in heaven but we hear Peter state that David has not ascended into heaven and this was years after the resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore, it says: "He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men."

The captivity that Jesus took captive where all those He set free by the Gospel He preached. Notice how Paul states he is a prisoner of Jesus in the very first sentence.

Ephesians 4:1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to have a walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,

Paul was a prisoner of sin just like everyone else untill he became a prisoner of Christ.

All the people that received Jesus during His time on earth was being proclaimed as His accomplishment when He set them free from their bondage to sin.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

John 8:32-34 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'' They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, `You will be made free'?'' Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

And the gifts are stated a few verses later.

Ephesians 4:11-12 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
I would like to share this study I did some time ago with the deep thinkers of God's word.

Let me know your thoughts?

No One In Heaven, part one.

Today’s belief is that when saved people die they go right to heaven to praise God and experience joy and when an unsaved person dies they go right to a place called hell where they hate God and experience pain from burning fire. But is this what the Bible teaches? Here are just a few verses to speak contrary to what people believe today.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.

Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Psalms 146:3-4 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalms 6:4-5 Return, O Lord, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake! For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

The Bible clearly teaches us that the dead, whether saved or lost, do not praise, love, or hate nor is there any remembrance of God in the grave. The Bible is clear when it says there is only silence in the grave.

You might be asking yourself, but what about Moses, Elijah and Enoch, aren’t they in heaven right now? This is where Satan has done a powerful delusion.

People have been led to believe, through delusion, that these men have died and gone into heaven. But we will soon see this is not true and totally against God’s word and God’s plan.

The Bible is clear regarding who has gone to heaven and who was the first to be raised from the dead never to die again.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The Bible is clear that no one, except for Jesus, has ever ascended into heaven to where the Father dwells. The Bible is also clear in that Jesus was the first one to be born from the dead. These statements lead us to believe that neither Moses, Enoch, Elijah or anyone else has received immortality or has gone into heaven, except for Jesus.

God calls us to test everything and hold onto that which is good.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

With this, let’s see what the Bible says, as a whole, regarding Moses, Enoch and Elijah. In doing this it will take some time and deep study to untie all the knots of confusion that Satan has tied over the years.

Many people have been taught to believe that Enoch, Elijah and Moses went to heaven where the Father dwells. But we have seen that this belief contradicts the Bible as a whole, as well as, Jesus’ own words.

Let's start with Enoch.

Hebrews 11:1-12 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. By faith Enoch was translated so that he did not see death, "and was not found because God had translated him''; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would afterward receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.By faith he sojourned in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Here in the book of Hebrews we have a whole list of faithful people. At the end of this list it says they all died without receiving the promise, including Enoch. We know that the promise was something in the future because they all looked forward to it, in the same way we look forward to it. The promise was the coming kingdom of God in the new heaven and new earth.

So how do we understand the fact that all these faithful people died without receiving the promise, yet, it seems to be saying that Enoch did not die? Is this a contradiction of Scripture? No, it’s an illusion used to support a false belief. If we study it more closely we will see that it’s not saying what we're making it say.

As we carefully read the words in these verses we will see that they say nothing of Enoch going to heaven. The teaching that says Enoch went to heaven is a conclusion that man has come based on delusion. Nowhere in these verses dose it say Enoch went to heaven. All it says is that God translated him so that he should not see death.

When these verses speak of what happened to Enoch they use some strange words. Because these are strange words we will have to use the Bible to interpret them.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The NT translators chose to use the word, (translate) probably because of their preconceived theological mindset of believing that the dead are alive somewhere else, which contradicts the whole Bible and God’s plan for a resurrection.

When looking at the word, translate, used by the NT translators, we have to keep in mind that these verses in the NT are explaining what happened to Enoch in the OT. So let’s go back to the OT and see what it says regarding Enoch.

Gen 5:23-24 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The word, (translate) in the NT is a word that is being used by the translators when describing what God did with Enoch in the OT but it’s not the same word being use in the OT. The NT word, (translate) opens our mind for all kinds of misinterpretations and illusions; a false perception, conception, or interpretation of what one sees.

We also see from the OT that God says "ALL THE DAYS OF ENOCH WERE 365 YEARS". Why were Enoch’s days only 365 years? Because God took him and he was not. These are the words being used in the OT.

So what does this all mean?

We know from the Bible that when God says, "All the days of ______ were ______" it means the person died.

Genesis 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

Genesis 5:11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.

Genesis 5:17 So all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.

What does it mean when God says someone (is not - because God took him)? These are some strange words.

So we don't come to our own conclusion in understanding what God meant when He says a person, (is not) because God (took him) we will have to go to the Bible and learn how God uses these phrases in other verses. In doing this we will not come to a false conclusion or misinterpret what God was saying.

The first verse is found in Genesis 42:13.

Genesis 42:13 And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.

The question we need to answer in this above verse is, who is this one, who is not?

The one, who is not, in the above verse, is the son who died. A couple verses ahead in Genesis 44:20 tells us who the one (who is not) is and what happened to him.

Genesis 44:20 And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.

The one (who is not) was the son who died. So when God uses the phrase, "was not" He is referring to someone who has died.

Let’s look at another verse that speaks of someone who (was not).

Matthew 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Rachel was crying for her children because THEY ARE NOT, in other words, they died.

Let’s look at another verse that gives us a very clear picture of what God means when He says someone is not.

Psalms 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

This person died and was not. The words, "They looked for him but he could not be found" are very important to keep in mind because it’s referring to this person who died. Now read Hebrews again and pay close attention to similar wording when referring to what happened to Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Because Enoch obeyed God's word, by living a life pleasing to God, God took him so that he should not see death. God took Enoch so that he SHOULD not see death.

Which death is God referring to here? Is it the death that we all have to face or is it the second death He is referring to here?

I believe God was referring to the second death because He makes it clear that Enoch walked with God and pleased God.

Revelation 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.'' '

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The fact that Enoch obeyed God's word makes him a righteous man. Are righteous and merciful men ever taken away, in other words, do they die? Yes, God does take them away but they too won't see death, the second death because they obeyed God and overcame.

Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perishes, and no man takes it to heart; merciful men are taken away, while no one considers that the righteous is taken away from evil.

God says the same thing about us. He tells us that if we obey His word we too will not see death, referring to the second death.

John 8:51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.''

Sometimes the translator’s use of words in the NT can cause confusion. But if we let the Bible speak as a whole, according to God’s plan, we can clear up all these confusions.

Proceed to part two...
where did the two figures Jesus talked with at the transfiguration come from? I think they were positively identified as Moses and Elijah.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
Upvote 0

KM Richards

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2010
887
32
I'm right here!
✟1,233.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Folks have the right to their own opinion...but, David is in Heaven (where did Peter says David didn't make it to Heaven???)

And, Paul was saying he is a prisoner of the Lord unto serving the Lord...not as someone who was bound by sin (that would mean he didn't know how to live unto Jesus instead of unto sin)
 
Upvote 0

k4c

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2003
4,278
39
Rhode Island
✟4,820.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
where did the two figures Jesus talked with at the transfiguration come from? I think they were positively identified as Moses and Elijah.

bugkiller
927154.gif

You tell me.

Did they come up from the grave or did they come down from heaven or was it just a vision of which does not have to be a literal reality as seen in visions all throughout the Bible?

Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.''
 
Upvote 0

k4c

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2003
4,278
39
Rhode Island
✟4,820.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Folks have the right to their own opinion...but, David is in Heaven (where did Peter says David didn't make it to Heaven???)

And, Paul was saying he is a prisoner of the Lord unto serving the Lord...not as someone who was bound by sin (that would mean he didn't know how to live unto Jesus instead of unto sin)

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Acts 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: `The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand,
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
You tell me.

Did they come up from the grave or did they come down from heaven or was it just a vision of which does not have to be a literal reality as seen in visions all throughout the Bible?

Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.''
Well they must have been raised form the dead where ever they came from. What does the scripture say? I thought satan and an angel had a fight over Moses body. If he went to hell satan would not be arguing or fighting over it. And an angel took it somewhere.Where did Elijah go in the whirlwind? My bible says he went to heaven.

It was litteral the word vision here is something gazed at - a spectacle. It is described as an event that took place not a dream. You are casting doubt and disbelief on the scripture. Jesus took Peter, James and John up to the mountian. This is a physical thing. I think the word vision is a bad choice of words for KJV. At least for our understanding of the word in the 21st century.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
Upvote 0

k4c

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2003
4,278
39
Rhode Island
✟4,820.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well they must have been raised form the dead where ever they came from. What does the scripture say? I thought satan and an angel had a fight over Moses body. If he went to hell satan would not be arguing or fighting over it. And an angel took it somewhere.Where did Elijah go in the whirlwind? My bible says he went to heaven.

It was litteral the word vision here is something gazed at - a spectacle. It is described as an event that took place not a dream. You are casting doubt and disbelief on the scripture. Jesus took Peter, James and John up to the mountian. This is a physical thing. I think the word vision is a bad choice of words for KJV. At least for our understanding of the word in the 21st century.

bugkiller
927154.gif


I guess you haven't read my study.
 
Upvote 0

KM Richards

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2010
887
32
I'm right here!
✟1,233.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Since Jesus had not done what He did yet which made the New Birth available...they were in "Abraham's Bosom"...which is the same place Lazurus was in in the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazurus.

Thjis was a protected, temporary place God set up for the OT Saints until the new birth became available, at which point they went to Heaven to be in the presence of the Father.

This place is no longer in existance because it's no longer needed...but
the cathlics think it is and they call it pergatory and charge money to
get your loved ones out of there...or so I've been told




.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

k4c

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2003
4,278
39
Rhode Island
✟4,820.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since Jesus had not done what He did yet which made the New Birth available...they were in "Abraham's Bosom"...which is the same place Lazurus was in in the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazurus.

Thjis was a protected, temporary place God set up for the OT Saints until the new birth became available, at which point they went to Heaven to be in the presence of the Father.

This place is no longer in existance because it's no longer needed...but
the cathlics think it is and they call it pergatory and charge money to
get your loved ones out of there...or so I've been told.

Do you really think the parable Jesus used, to teach the religious Jews how earthly riches is not a determining factor of one being right with God, was litteral?

For example, do you really think that a father, who was saved, could see his son, who was lost, burn with pain and agony for hundreds maybe thousands of years before the new birth was avalible?

Do you really think all the millions of people could fit in Abraham's bosom?

Do you really think a drop of water could cure the curse of burning hell fire.

Do you really think a saved mother in a place called Paradise and a lost daughter in a burning place called hell could talk between these two places of the dead?

Parables don't have to be true to teach a lesson nor do they need to be Biblically sound because the true lesson is found in what is understood behind the scenes.
 
Upvote 0

KM Richards

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2010
887
32
I'm right here!
✟1,233.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Parables don't have to be true to teach a lesson nor do they need to be Biblically sound because the true lesson is found in what is understood behind the scenes.

Jesus told stories about real people and actual situations...because He is perfect and absolutely cannot lie.

You and I...sure we can use examples that aren't actually real to illustrate a point we may be making...but Jesus, He's THE Word of God...

If any of His parables were lies...then He sinned, and if He sinned, then we're all doomed to hell...

I mean, if Jesus were able to lose track of what day of the week it was...and on a Thursday afternoon He walked in and said "what a wonder Saturday afternoon it is"...suddenly, it's now Saturday afternoon! In other words, what He says happens!

BTW, Abraham's bosom was just like the Garden of Eden...it was a place of paradise with plenty of room for all the Sainst to hang out and watch Jesus on the big screen at the OT Saints convention...they downloaded His teachings to their iPods, and checked out Jesus' website Jesus.vic where they could email the Father and consult with the Holy Ghost :D
 
Upvote 0
I

ImperialJohn

Guest
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

If anyone should be in heaven after Jesus' death it would be David. But what does Peter say about David?

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself...


"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24

The Bible confirms that even the very elect, those who bear Christ's name "Christians" would be deceived. Satan has infiltrated the Church and led people astray.

You're quite right on this. I think this last part sums it up pretty well. If anyone else did deserve to be resurrected and inherit the Kingdom besides Jesus it would have been King David. But scripture confirms he is still in the grave. Everyone who has ever lived except Jesus has sined and we know the wages of sin are death. Jesus is the only one who so far qualified by overcoming sin and living the perfect sinless life.

At the moment all others are still dead, buried and with us to this day in the grave. That includes all the prophets, apostles, saints, the virgin Mary, We and they are still awaiting resurrection and judgement.

Jesus was the first fruits. Then there are still two more resurrections to take place. The Millenial Resurrection and the Great White Throne Resurrection.

It is only church doctrine that teaches opposite to this that we all go straight to heaven or hell. Satan has deceived the Church and whole World. It was the original deception in the Garden of Eden that people are falling for all over again that we surely wont die.

“I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me”. Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

"all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

We are yet to be resurrected for Judgement when the Messiah returns. That has not yet happened. All who have ever existed are dead and buried to this day. Only Jesus rose from the dead never to die again. Only Jesus can save us.


 
Upvote 0

k4c

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2003
4,278
39
Rhode Island
✟4,820.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24

The Bible confirms that even the very elect, those who bear Christ's name "Christians" would be deceived. Satan has infiltrated the Church and led people astray.

You're quite right on this. I think this last part sums it up pretty well. If anyone else did deserve to be resurrected and inherit the Kingdom besides Jesus it would have been King David. But scripture confirms he is still in the grave. Everyone who has ever lived except Jesus has sined and we know the wages of sin are death. Jesus is the only one who so far qualified by overcoming sin and living the perfect sinless life.

At the moment all others are still dead, buried and with us to this day in the grave. That includes all the prophets, apostles, saints, the virgin Mary, We and they are still awaiting resurrection and judgement.

Jesus was the first fruits. Then there are still two more resurrections to take place. The Millenial Resurrection and the Great White Throne Resurrection.

It is only church doctrine that teaches opposite to this that we all go straight to heaven or hell. Satan has deceived the Church and whole World. It was the original deception in the Garden of Eden that people are falling for all over again that we surely wont die.

“I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me”. Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

"all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life inChrist Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

We are yet to be resurrected for Judgement when the Messiah returns. That has not yet happened. All who have ever existed are dead and buried to this day. Only Jesus rose from the dead never to die again. Only Jesus can save us.


Amen...
 
Upvote 0