No One In Heaven part one

[Merlin]

If you read through the posts on this thread your questions will be answered. Just to address one of your questions. Jesus came out of the grave three days later when He said He still had not ascended to heaven so He didn't go to the Father the day He died.

so,
luke 23 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

i see 3 options here
1 paradise is not referring to heaven here
2 jesus lied
3 jesus rose to heaven on the day he was crucified, not on the third day.

 

[Timothew]

luke 23 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

i see 3 options here
1 paradise is not heaven here
2 jesus lied
3 jesus rose to heaven on the day he was crucified, not on the third day.

Today’s belief is that when saved people die they go right to heaven to praise God and experience joy and when an unsaved person dies they go right to a place called hell where they hate God and experience pain from burning fire. But is this what the Bible teaches? Here are just a few verses to speak contrary to what people believe today.

did i understand this wrong

K4C pointed out to me earlier that another option is available, there are no commas in the original greek, here's a copy of the miniscule text:
και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω,
A literal translation would be: "and said him the Jesus Amen I-tell you today with me be in the paradise."

So you could put the comma after you, so it is "Amen, I tell you, Today you will be with me in paradise," meaning they will be in paradise today;

Or you could put the comma after Today, so it is "Amen, I tell you today, You will be with me in paradise," meaning that Jesus is telling him today, that they will eventually be together in paradise.

Here is my disclaimer, I am not a greek expert, and it would be helpful to consult an expert on this verse.

 

[Merlin]

K4C pointed out to me earlier that another option is available, there are no commas in the original greek, here's a copy of the miniscule text:
και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω,
A literal translation would be: "and said him the Jesus Amen I-tell you today with me be in the paradise."

So you could put the comma after you, so it is "Amen, I tell you, Today you will be with me in paradise," meaning they will be in paradise today;

Or you could put the comma after Today, so it is "Amen, I tell you today, You will be with me in paradise," meaning that Jesus is telling him today, that they will eventually be together in paradise.

Here is my disclaimer, I am not a greek expert, and it would be helpful to consult an expert on this verse.

thank you

 

[Timothew]

thank you

de nada, I didn't see this until K4C's post. I still don't know what to think. Perhaps there is Life and there is Death, and there is Eternal Life in Christ. (After His 2nd coming?)

 

[k4c]

K4C pointed out to me earlier that another option is available, there are no commas in the original greek, here's a copy of the miniscule text:
??? ????? ???? ? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?????????,
A literal translation would be: "and said him the Jesus Amen I-tell you today with me be in the paradise."

So you could put the comma after you, so it is "Amen, I tell you, Today you will be with me in paradise," meaning they will be in paradise today;

Or you could put the comma after Today, so it is "Amen, I tell you today, You will be with me in paradise," meaning that Jesus is telling him today, that they will eventually be together in paradise.

Here is my disclaimer, I am not a greek expert, and it would be helpful to consult an expert on this verse.

When interpreting the Bible it's important to use the Bible to interpret the verses and not use verses to interpret the Bible. In other words, if we die and go right to heaven or hell at death it contradicts the whole Bible, as well as, God's plan. The whole Bible tells us that if we need to put a comma we should use the Bible to determine where to put it, not a preconceived belief.

 

[Timothew]

When interpreting the Bible it's important to use the Bible to interpret the verses and not use verses to interpret the Bible. In other words, if we die and go right to heaven or hell at death it contradicts the whole Bible, as well as, God's plan. The whole Bible tells us that if we need to put a comma we should use the Bible to determine where to put it, not a preconceived belief.

Did the greek font not come through on your computer? I see a bunch of ????? in your quote of my message.

 

[k4c]

Did the greek font not come through on your computer? I see a bunch of ????? in your quote of my message.

Hi T,

The Greek did come through but I guess when I replied using my BlackBerry it came out as ??????, I'm not sure why. Anyway, your replies are very good and Spirit led.

 

[Norbert L]

This is a fairly thorough study however it's not all encompassing. I doubt anything that either you or I can post on a forum can be. A lot more can be said on the subject with the ideas of spirit, body and soul, which are often used to dispute about the nature of man's life and death.

I myself do not believe the doctrine of immediately going to heaven at the point of death. I do believe the spirit does return to God at death but for those who have questions about the subject, does that mean the man, his body and soul returns to God as well? This also goes a little beyond the scope of this study.

Then there's the evidence that a few individuals that died and then were brought back to life a second time. Where did they go in the meantime and what does that make of the verse "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"? (Heb 9:27) It's really a huge subject when trying to figure out all the ins and outs of who is in heaven now and who is not.

Even today after Jesus' resurrection, I am of the mind as Peter testified to the state of another one of God's faithful servants (after the resurrection and return to heaven), "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day... For David did not ascend into the heavens... " (Act 2:29,34).

But as far as this study is concerned, I'm still wondering about how you've explained the body of Moses. Is that what the accepted traditional SDA teachings say? And is there more material on that particular subject?

 

[Timothew]

I can't say anything about SDA teaching, since I know nothing, perhaps I should say nothing, But:

From Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.5.1

Where then was the first man placed? Clearly in paradise, just as it is written: And God planted paradise in the east, in Eden, and placed there the man whom he had formed. And thence he was cast out into this world for failure to obey. Therefore the elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that those who have been translated are translated thither, for paradise was prepared for just and spirit-borne men, to which [place] the apostle Paul also was carried and heard words not to be uttered, as to us in the present; and those who have been translated remain there until the consummation, anticipating incorruptibility

​

I appears that the Christian belief in immediate transfer to heaven at death goes way back. Irenaeus seems to believe so, and believed that this was the teaching of the apostles. I have no way of knowing if Irenaeus was correct. He was way closer (in time and language) to the original greek than we are.

 

[Kira Light]

But as far as this study is concerned, I'm still wondering about how you've explained the body of Moses. Is that what the accepted traditional SDA teachings say? And is there more material on that particular subject?

Um, I know the SDA's teach Moses is in heaven right now. He is one of only a couple exceptions to the "soul sleep".

 

[Timothew]

Um, I know the SDA's teach Moses is in heaven right now. He is one of only a couple exceptions to the "soul sleep".

Would those exceptions be Moses, Elijah, and Enoch?

 

[Kira Light]

Would those exceptions be Moses, Elijah, and Enoch?

I believe that covers it!

 

[k4c]

This is a fairly thorough study however it's not all encompassing. I doubt anything that either you or I can post on a forum can be. A lot more can be said on the subject with the ideas of spirit, body and soul, which are often used to dispute about the nature of man's life and death.

I myself do not believe the doctrine of immediately going to heaven at the point of death. I do believe the spirit does return to God at death but for those who have questions about the subject, does that mean the man, his body and soul returns to God as well? This also goes a little beyond the scope of this study.

Then there's the evidence that a few individuals that died and then were brought back to life a second time. Where did they go in the meantime and what does that make of the verse "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"? (Heb 9:27) It's really a huge subject when trying to figure out all the ins and outs of who is in heaven now and who is not.

Even today after Jesus' resurrection, I am of the mind as Peter testified to the state of another one of God's faithful servants (after the resurrection and return to heaven), "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day... For David did not ascend into the heavens... " (Act 2:29,34).

But as far as this study is concerned, I'm still wondering about how you've explained the body of Moses. Is that what the accepted traditional SDA teachings say? And is there more material on that particular subject?

The study posted here is my own study and not an SDA belief. But this is not to say it won't be if more people read it and study it out for themselves.

I believe much of what we believe today about death and the grave have pagan roots filtered into the Christian faith through Catholisim.

There is not one verse in the entire Bible that says Moses was resurrected, but just as the Bible speaks of the grave of David it speaks of the grave of Moses.

God's plan throughout the Bible is clear. The dead, whether saved or lost, are waiting for one of two resurrections. If anyone has been raised to never die again before Jesus then Jesus is not the first born from the dead, which discredits Him as the firstfruits among many bretheran. This throws off God's entire plan.

 

[Norbert L]

Sabbath keeping congregations are not immune to this:

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction." (2Pe 2:1)

And for those who lead or even wish to lead in teaching, one good reason to pay attention to James' instruction, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body." (Jas 3:1-2)

I believe with many words of instruction, there does seem to be a tendency to bite off more than a person can chew. Which sometimes can show itself as a "we've got it all figured out now" syndrome. Where it produces a disorder in a body of believers when others too have it all figured out, except their figuring out is different. Which is a disorder that can produce divisions rather than everyone being in unity.

I myself would rather be 100% sure of 50% of teachings, rather than 50% sure of 100% of the teachings. And not to be dismissive of either seeing I may not be 100% sure yet, nor that there is no longer the possiblity of seeing wondorous things (Ps 119:18) where I'm 50% sure. "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Php 3:12)

So when it comes to teachings, it could be rather simple, " For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1Co 3:11) But of course with that comes responsiblity, "But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon".

In a way people should be less concerned about Enoch, Moses and Elijah seeing they have already attained a relationship with Jesus Christ and more concerned about our own relationship with Him.

 

[k4c]

Sabbath keeping congregations are not immune to this:

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction." (2Pe 2:1)

And for those who lead or even wish to lead in teaching, one good reason to pay attention to James' instruction, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body." (Jas 3:1-2)

I believe with many words of instruction, there does seem to be a tendency to bite off more than a person can chew. Which sometimes can show itself as a "we've got it all figured out now" syndrome. Where it produces a disorder in a body of believers when others too have it all figured out, except their figuring out is different. Which is a disorder that can produce divisions rather than everyone being in unity.

I myself would rather be 100% sure of 50% of teachings, rather than 50% sure of 100% of the teachings. And not to be dismissive of either seeing I may not be 100% sure yet, nor that there is no longer the possiblity of seeing wondorous things (Ps 119:18) where I'm 50% sure. "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Php 3:12)

So when it comes to teachings, it could be rather simple, " For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1Co 3:11) But of course with that comes responsiblity, "But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon".

In a way people should be less concerned about Enoch, Moses and Elijah seeing they have already attained a relationship with Jesus Christ and more concerned about our own relationship with Him.

So are you saying we should not study or test what we believe?

I believe much of mainline Christanity has been influenced by pagan beliefs and practices so we need to test and restudy what is being taught.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Norbert L]

So are you saying we should not study or test what we believe?

I believe much of mainline Christanity has been influenced by pagan beliefs and practices so we need to test and restudy what is being taught.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Not at all, as I mentioned of myself,

And not to be dismissive of either, seeing I may not be 100% sure yet, nor that there is no longer the possiblity of seeing wondorous things (Ps 119:18) where I'm 50% sure.

Also with mainline Christianity, it can be too easy of a target when it comes to obvious pagan beliefs and practices. What may not be as obvious then are Sabbatarian beliefs and practices, they can also be misleading in their own way too.

That is why Sabbatarians also "need to test and restudy what is being taught" among themselves.

 

[k4c]

Not at all, as I mentioned of myself,



Also with mainline Christianity, it can be too easy of a target when it comes to obvious pagan beliefs and practices. What may not be as obvious then are Sabbatarian beliefs and practices, they can also be misleading in their own way too.

That is why Sabbatarians also "need to test and restudy what is being taught" among themselves.

I believe God honors what we believe and practice as long as we've done our personal study even if what we believe and pratice is not perfect, which we know it won't be.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Norbert L]

I believe God honors what we believe and practice as long as we've done our personal study even if what we believe and pratice is not perfect, which we know it won't be.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't believe God honors incorrect teachings, however I do believe He does take the situation of a believer and can turn the lemon into lemonade in time.

"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" (Rom 2:4)

I might not agree with all that is taught but at the same time it's not as if, "No doubt you {Norbert} are the people, And wisdom will die with you!" (Job 12:2) We all make mistakes, we all would like the same forebearance and patience from God and we all need to be open to His correction.

 

[KM Richards]

"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
(speaking about Christians...)

There are many in Heaven currently, right now...because
Jesus is in Heaven, so when a Christian leaves their body
and they are present with the Lord, they are where He is.

 

[k4c]

"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
(speaking about Christians...)

There are many in Heaven currently, right now...because
Jesus is in Heaven, so when a Christian leaves their body
and they are present with the Lord, they are where He is.

When Paul said, "absent for the body" he was not teaching a doctrine of what happens when we die. If you read the context you will find what Paul was saying is that he would much rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. The same Paul teaches us all throughout his teachings when this will take place, and it's not at death, but rather, at the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Now listen to what Jesus said regarding who has gone to heaven.

John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.