No objective grounding for evil?

[jayem]

It is all about definition. God is defined as Good. So God is not evil.

The ground of everything is definition. Even God needs to be defined. Learn that.

OK, that's your definition of God. But how do you know that? Can you not even imagine other possibilities? Open your mind and think outside your comfort zone.

 

[Steeno7]

Why does "goodness" have to be grounded in God's nature if "evil" does not? "Evil", as traditionally understood, is the misuse of human free will. There is no objective grounding for it. It logically follows that "goodness" is the proper use of human free will. How, then, is it necessary to ground "goodness", but not "evil"? Is "evil" grounded in something other than God? If so, what is it? If not, then why does "goodness" HAVE to be grounded, but "evil" does not?

Goodness is grounded in God because God IS Good, it is who He is in Himself. Evil is then anything that is contrary to God's own character. Yes, evil, being contrary to the very nature of God is grounded in "something" other than God. The biblical answer is that it is grounded in Satan. Evil is always the expression of the character of Satan, just as goodness is always the expression of the character of God.

 

[juvenissun]

OK, that's your definition of God. But how do you know that? Can you not even imagine other possibilities? Open your mind and think outside your comfort zone.

Of course I can. In fact, it has been done long long time ago. Human defined many gods of different nature.

However, Christian God has a special definition, which includes a set of desirable attributes, such as love, power, etc. Once those natures are defined, whatever theology followed should not have any conflict with that. Otherwise, it would have to go all over again from the very beginning. This is easy to understand, but is very hard to do as the theology built up.

So, it is not how do I know that, it is how do we define that.

 

[juvenissun]

I can only repeat myself...
When you repeat a claim and are asked to support the claim with evidence, pointing to the original claim that you repeated is not a valid answer.

I said Christian God creates.
And I pointed it to Genesis 1.

Why is it not a valid argument?

 

[juvenissun]

How on earth would it take you two months to go over Genesis 1? There's only 31 verses, and they aren't that complicated.

On a side note, did you go over the parts in Genesis 2 which contradict Genesis 1?

Unfortunately not. I took Gen. 2 as a review of Gen 1. Gen 2 has its special contents other than that in Gen 1. And, no, I don't see any conflicts.

Sunday School only meet one hour per week. So, 8 to 10 hours are not too much to explain what we know about Gen. 1. For example, Gen 1:1 took me about two hours to explain it. It does not include all other Bible Books which have verses echoed the content of Gen. 1 (such as Isaiah etc.)

 

[JGL53]

This topic has angered you. Whyzat?

I suppose when you have no reasoned reply to someone you can just fall back on accusing them of some emotional failing. Nice dodge.

BTW, it was not me who accused you of being a sanctimonious old crackpot - YOU actually identify yourself as one.

Congrats on being honest about yourself.

 

[JGL53]

Calamity is not evil. Evil is not a term YOU can define arbitrarily.

You seem to define "evil" merely as synonymous with "sin", as in human sin.

I define evil more broadly. It is anything that is bad for humans, whether they do it to themselves voluntarily, whether mother nature does it to them, or whether god does it to them.

You are not going to accept my definition of evil.

I am are not going to accept your definition of evil.

OK.

 

[JGL53]

One thing to prevent stubbornness is try to reason.

It becomes more important when one is getting old and thinks he knows everything.

Are you going to reason? Or you are tire of doing it?

I'm not sure where pure ad hominem is going to get us - probably to a bad place.

Why not try to mix in some reasoned argument in your next post? I might can "reasonably" respond to that.

lol.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I suppose when you have no reasoned reply to someone you can just fall back on accusing them of some emotional failing.

What would be a 'reasoned reply' to your rude trashing of my response to the OP? Your posts contain a lot of anger.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I said Christian God creates.
And I pointed it to Genesis 1.

Why is it not a valid argument?

You made a claim: god did X.
I asked for evidence of said claim.

In response to that request, you just pointed to another source of the same claim.

I'm not asking you where you got the claim from, who else makes the same claim or in which book someone wrote down the claim.

I'm asking for evidence in support of the claim. Which you did not provide.

You are welcome to try again.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Unfortunately not. I took Gen. 2 as a review of Gen 1. Gen 2 has its special contents other than that in Gen 1. And, no, I don't see any conflicts.

It's not a conflict! It's a revision!! Because for some reason, the authors couldn't get it right the first time with the help of an all-knowing and all-powerfull miracle worker.

Sunday School only meet one hour per week. So, 8 to 10 hours are not too much to explain what we know about Gen. 1. For example, Gen 1:1 took me about two hours to explain it.

And you were THAT interested in it, that you couldn't be bothered to engage in some self-study during the other 167 hours of the week...

Seems legit.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Goodness is grounded in God because God IS Good

How do you know?
You merely defined it that way. Quite arbitrarily. You don't have any data to base this on. And if the bible counts as data, then it seems that the opposite is true.

it is who He is in Himself.

What does this even mean? Does it mean what I think it means?

Evil is then anything that is contrary to God's own character.

Or the opposite, if one would define it that way instead of this way.
Without data, you can pretty much make it up as you go along, right?

The biblical answer is that it is grounded in Satan

And what is the biblical answer to the question "who created Satan"?

Evil is always the expression of the character of Satan

Sounds like a monster we should get rid of. Now if only there was someone powerfull enough to destroy him.... Hmmm.

just as goodness is always the expression of the character of God.

An all powerfull MORAL being would get rid of the root of all evil yesterday.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Unfortunately not. I took Gen. 2 as a review of Gen 1. Gen 2 has its special contents other than that in Gen 1. And, no, I don't see any conflicts.

Sunday School only meet one hour per week. So, 8 to 10 hours are not too much to explain what we know about Gen. 1. For example, Gen 1:1 took me about two hours to explain it. It does not include all other Bible Books which have verses echoed the content of Gen. 1 (such as Isaiah etc.)

The two contradictory creation accounts.

Here's the contradictions that you don't say exist.

 

[JGL53]

What would be a 'reasoned reply' to your rude trashing of my response to the OP? Your posts contain a lot of anger.

I have no clue what a "reasoned argument" would be in favor of the truth for any supernatural claim.

In any case, the burden of such is yours.

If you have none, then you have no argument. I guess that would be my point.

So far, as has been pointed out by others, the only attempt at an argument by the religious on this thread is that god defines evil and good, so what he does is good, what he tells humans to do is good, what god does not like and tells humans not to do - that is evil. IOW, morality comes down to "he who has the power makes the rules." That, and an unclear defense of god creating natural disasters and babies born blind or severely handicapped - how can that be morally justified outside of power-worship?

You have any NEW thoughts on the latter questions above?

(Plus - if YOU PEOPLE don't stop telling me I am angry I am going to get angry.) lol.

 

[Steeno7]

How do you know?
You merely defined it that way. Quite arbitrarily. You don't have any data to base this on. And if the bible counts as data, then it seems that the opposite is true.



What does this even mean? Does it mean what I think it means?




Or the opposite, if one would define it that way instead of this way.
Without data, you can pretty much make it up as you go along, right?



And what is the biblical answer to the question "who created Satan"?



Sounds like a monster we should get rid of. Now if only there was someone powerfull enough to destroy him.... Hmmm.




An all powerfull MORAL being would get rid of the root of all evil yesterday.

Yes, the Bible tells me so. It means that God is good, and what God is, only God is. We have the data, so no, you can't just make it up as you go along. God created Lucifer, and what God creates is good, because, you guessed it, God is Good. Satan was not always Satan, he became Satan, by choice. I've read the "rest of the story", I know how it ends....it's not pretty for Satan and those identified with him. Be careful of what you wish for.

 

[JGL53]

Yes, the Bible tells me so. It means that God is good, and what God is, only God is. We have the data, so no, you can't just make it up as you go along. God created Lucifer, and what God creates is good, because, you guessed it, God is Good. Satan was not always Satan, he became Satan, by choice. I've read the "rest of the story", I know how it ends....it's not pretty for Satan and those identified with him. Be careful of what you wish for.

That's quite a line of "logic" you have offered us there.

Congratulations - I guess.

Your god is a super-slick guy. Talk about passing the buck. He seems to have got it down to a system. I bet he can even create a rock so large that even he himself can't lift it. But then lifts it anyway. Because, you know, god is god, and so forth.

BTW, I hear that the grape Kool-Aid tastes the best. What do you think?

 

[Steeno7]

That's quite a line of "logic" you have offered us there.

Congratulations - I guess.

Your god is a super-slick guy. Talk about passing the buck. He seems to have got it down to a system. I bet he can even create a rock so large that even he himself can't lift it. But then lifts it anyway. Because, you know, god is god, and so forth.

BTW, I hear that the grape Kool-Aid tastes the best. What do you think?

I think folks ridicule what they do not understand. I think cherry taste best..to each their own I suppose.

 

[Huntun]

Check it out guys. I just proved Zeus exists by defining him into existence!

1. Our understanding of Zeus is a being of which no greater can be conceived.
2. The idea of Zeus exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If Zeus only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than Zeus.
6. Therefore, Zeus exists.

I can prove all the other mythical characters are actually real that way too.

 

[granpa]

evil is defined as all-bad.
Nothing and nobody is all-bad.

God is sometimes called "good" because God is completely selfless but even God has a shadow
(And only God is completely selfless)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have no clue what a "reasoned argument" would be in favor of the truth for any supernatural claim.

In any case, the burden of such is yours.

If you have none, then you have no argument. I guess that would be my point.

Are you asking me to justify my beliefs to you?

So far, as has been pointed out by others, the only attempt at an argument by the religious on this thread is that god defines evil and good, so what he does is good, what he tells humans to do is good, what god does not like and tells humans not to do - that is evil. IOW, morality comes down to "he who has the power makes the rules." That, and an unclear defense of god creating natural disasters and babies born blind or severely handicapped - how can that be morally justified outside of power-worship?

You have any NEW thoughts on the latter questions above?

Nope, same old answers.