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Split Rock

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Please see my post, just above, to the OP. Notice I never mentioned the Bible at all. Evolution stands or falls based on science and logic alone.
That is true in scientific circles, but not necessarilty among creationists. For most creationists the physical evidence means little to them. They were not convinced to reject evolution by the physical evidence, so they cannot be convinced to accept evolution by the physical evidence. That was my point.

Now that you have come onto a website that is supposed to be supportive to Christians, to insult and throw mud at them,
That is a blatant falsehood. I have been here longer than you and I did not come here to insult Christians or throw mud. I do not insult anyone who does not insult me first.

why don't you show how much more intelligent you are by answering the Qs I asked above? Don't evade them now like so many evo fans before you. Don't change the subject. (But I predict you will do exactly that as evo. devotees almost always do.)
I will get to that, though it is a long post.

Try to restrain yourself from the red herring and strawman logical fallacies of more Bible Bashing.
That sounds more like most creationists I have met here. Also, I never, ever bash the bible. I do bash flawed interpretations of the bible that conflict with objective reality, however.

Show some manners. Show some knowledge. Kindly enlighiten us all and just answer those Qs. using observable data - not logical fallacies now - using actual scientific data.
Let me ask you this: Do you reject evolution because of the physical evidence or because of your interpretation of scripture? Be honest.
 
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Split Rock

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This will be my last post to you. You have, sadly, taken the usual approach of evo. devotees, that is you have become nasty, insulting and falsely accusing. I only debate with those who are civil and objective.

Maybe you should take your own advice. :preach:
 
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RickG

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This will be my last post to you. You have, sadly, taken the usual approach of evo. devotees, that is you have become nasty, insulting and falsely accusing. I only debate with those who are civil and objective.

Cute. I ask a straight forward question and what do I get? A complete trashing of the scientific community, calling them blind and liars along with a lot of previously prepared copy/paste, demonstrating your complete avoidance of any civil discussion demonstrating that you have little to no knowledge concerning anything in that C/P.

If the geologic column doesn't exist, then why do we see numerous layers of different kinds of sediments deposited under varied and specific conditions and times. How does that not qualify as a geologic column?
 
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LoricaLady

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RICKG I did not read you post because, as I have already stated, I only debate with those who are civil and objective, as opposed to insulting and falsely accusatory. My experience is that such people escalate in such verbally abusive behaviors, if not right away, then before very long. I don't have time for that. But I wish you well and have been praying for you. :) Bye!
 
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LoricaLady

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Its basically throwing as much mud as possible against the wall and hoping something sticks. It doesn't matter to most creationists if the arguments they use contradict each other, as long as they get as many out as possible. The only argument that actually matters to them is, "my interpretation of the bible says so." Anything else is frankly a ball of mud used to score points to "win the debate."

The above quote in my mind is insulting and degrading to Christians, also generally untrue, and therefore is "throwing mud." How long you have been on this site in relation to me is not any test of your, or my, belief systems, now is it?

You also present creation believing Christians as being dishonest and stupid in this quote: "For most creationists the physical evidence means little to them. They were not convinced to reject evolution by the physical evidence, so they cannot be convinced to accept evolution by the physical evidence. That was my point."

You say you don't bash the Bible. Yes, indirectly, you do. Messiah made it clear that He believes in Adam and Eve and Noah as actual, historical, personages. You hint, vaguely, that you can dispel all the creation facts that the Bible supports with more "objective" information.

I have presented tons of objective information. As for you, you go into the same category as RickG, someone I will no longer trade posts with because you wer not nice, but insulting, let's call it what it is, verbally abusive. As I told him, that is typical for evo supporters and I only debate with those who are civil and objective. I'll be praying for you too, though, praying that you will come into the full truth, but that if you do not that you will be kept from leading others away from it. BYE!
 
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Split Rock

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Please explain to me how you can tell a "missing" link from a never existed link? I'd appreciate data on that.
A "missing link" has features of both of two different taxonomic divisions. I have no idea what you mean by a "never existed link."

Let's look at a couple of fossils, ambulocetus and tiktaalik, where the evolutionary thinking is represented, as with all their "transitional" fossils.

First ambulocetus. We are told that this small, horned and hooved animal turned into a great whale! Wow. There must be so much ev-i-dence for that. Please give me a shred of evidence that it ever produced a single descendant significantly different from itself in anyway. Or, is all such evidence primarily composed of....missing...."links"?
All descendants are different unless they are clones. We do not know if Ambulocetus gave rise to a more whale-like species or not. It is transitional because it has feature of whales that are derived and found only in whales. If it didn't give rise to a more whale-like species, then a similar species most likely did so. The fossil record is incomplete, so in most cases we see only parts of the branches of the tree or bush of life.

Pllease don't point me to this and that of a dozen or so other "whale transition" fossils and tell me ambulocetus turned into them. There's no ev-i-dence for that. They don't even look alike. Or if there is evidence, show what it is. Show any evidence that those other supposed transitions had a single descendant significantly different form themselves in any way or were related to one another. What observable data is there to show that ambulocetus isn't just what it looks like, a dead end, extinct, lifeform?
They do look alike. They have features in common with other whales that are also transitional. Obviously they are not identical, or they wouldn't be separate species.

It is possible that Ambulocetus was a dead end.. we do not know. It is still transitional because it has features required of it. It is in a sense representative of what the early ancestor most likely looked like.

Oh, but you will cite "similar homology" no doubt, in this case because ambulocetus had some minor similarity in its inner ears to whales. Uh, sorry, that's the use of the Correlation Does Not Imply Causation logical fallacy, one of the many logical fallacies evolution is built on, and its favorite one. Science cannot be illogical. That means you can't prop up a theory with logical fallacies and call it evidence.
What logical fallacy? There are multiple lines of evidence that lead to the conclusion that whales evolved from tererstrial even-toed ungulates. Atavisms, embryology, genetics, morphlogy and the fossil record all lead to this one conclusion. The fossil record does not tell us anything in isolation.

Doilphns and sharks have similar homology, so do snakes and worms. Bats, birds and bees fly. Bats and whales have sonar - gee, that's even more of a similarity than seen in the inner ear structures of ambulocetus and whales. People and cockatoos dance to music. Countless other similarities can be found in life forms that even evolutionist don't try to claim are related. So what? Correlation Does Not Imply Causation.
All species are indeed related through genetic descent, but you are engaging in some fallacies here:
1. Yes, dolphins and sharks have simliar body shapes, and general morphological homologies. This is because they have similar lifestyles, and are both vertebrate animals. However, sharks are fish and whales are mammals. A big difference, for example, is that whale flukes are horizontal, and shark tails are verticle.

2. Snakes and worms are quite far apart compared to dolphins and sharks. Just being long and legless does not constitute homology. Worms are not vertebrates like snakes are.

3. Bats, bees and birds all fly, yes. But their wings and the way they fly are very different. Bats and birds are both vertebrates, so have more homology than either do to bees. However, the wings of bats and birds are still quite different.

4. The sonar of whales and bats are also quite different.

I think you mean "similarity does not imply relatedness." That may be true, but it is the pattern of similarity... the nested hierarchy of life... that provides the inference for common descent.

Now onto Tiktaalik. At least one world famous evolutionary evangelist has proudly called Tik "As good as it gets for a transitional form." I agree with that statement! If you check out some evolution sites you will see Tik being called a "Fishapod" as we are being led to believe it turned into a tetrapod, a 4 legged creature. But....but....it looks practically identical to other lobe finned fish found today.
It does not look like modern lobe-finned fish. It has a neck, and it has hands.


And...and...some decades ago peer reviews were raving about Coelacanth, another lobe finned fish, and saying it was turning into a tetrapod and was evidence for evolution Then they found some live Coelacanths. You can see the pretty blue....fish period....swimming around on Youtube. They used their Correlation Does Not Imply Causation/similar homology argument with him, too, of course.
Reference please. Yes, there are Coelacanths today, though they are different species than the ones found in the fossil record. While lobe-finned fish are, as a group, ancestral to fishapods like Tiktaalik, Coelacanths are not of the subset that were directly ancestral.

Back to Tiktaalik. Check out a site with ictheyologists and you will hear it being described as a fish....a lobe finned....fish. Period. Where is the evidence it ever turned into something else? Nowhere of course.
Whether you call it a fish or a tetrapod is entirely subjective... that is why it is called a tranistional, or a "fishapod" by many. You can draw the line after Tiktaalik or before Tiktaalik.. again, that is what we expect from a tranitional species. It was a lobe-finned fish with a neck and legs. That is why it is a transitional.

Even worse for you, Tiktaalik is just one of many fishapod transitionals found in the fossil record, all from the Denovian Period. Devonian Times - Recent Findings

What is your explanation for that? Why aren't they found with trilobites? Why aren't they found with more modern tetrapods from the same environment, like frogs and salamanders? Where are your answers?
 
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Astrophile

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Please explain to me how you can tell a "missing" link from a never existed link? I'd appreciate data on that.

First ambulocetus. We are told that this small, horned and hooved animal turned into a great whale! Wow. There must be so much ev-i-dence for that. Please give me a shred of evidence that it ever produced a single descendant significantly different from itself in anyway. Or, is all such evidence primarily composed of....missing...."links"?

You are asking the wrong question. To prove your case, you should be looking for evidence that the remote ancestors of modern whales were whales identical to living whales, and that the remote ancestors of Ambulocetus also belonged to the genus Ambulocetus.

Consider this. You do not have to present evidence that you have (or had) a father and a mother and that you had grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.; that is an obvious biological fact. All life comes from life, so every living thing belongs to a lineage extending indefinitely far back into the past. If there was no evolution, we should find fossil ancestors of modern species that are identical to the modern species. We don't find this; there are no Eocene fossil apes, or Mesozoic whales, or Palaeozoic mammals or dinosaurs. Therefore there must have been changes in species; modern apes are descended from Eocene (and earlier) ancestors that were not apes; modern whales are descended from Mesozoic ancestors that were not whales; Mesozoic dinosaurs were descended from Palaeozoic ancestors that were not dinosaurs, etc..

I have presented this argument several times, but nobody appears to have tried to refute it, or even to have understood the argument. If I'm wrong, can somebody demonstrate the fact; if I'm right, you ought to accept it as compelling evidence for evolution.
 
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LoricaLady

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SPLIT ROCK

Oh, I missed one Q that I really should have addressed. :

"Let me ask you this: Do you reject evolution because of the physical evidence or because of your interpretation of scripture? Be honest."


Let me ask you some Qs: Do you reject creationism because of the physical evidence or because you just can't believe that what you've been told all your life isn't true? Do you reject creationism because you don't like thinking that the Bible is all that true, and therefore you can kind of pick and choose how you want to live based on what you like?

Did I ever ask you to believe anything based on the Bible? Didn't I say that evolution stands or falls based on science and logic alone? Yes, I have come to believe that the Bible absolutely is supported by.....reeeeal... science. I am a young earther. But that shouldn't even be a factor for you, what I believe or why.

The data. The data, my friend. Honest research on both sides about, the data. The data. That's where the truth lies. There is no contradiction between truth and YHWH, aka God, or between science and YHWH. But you will never see that unless you stop attacking believers and spend the time instead on really looking at these issues, really looking outside the box, outside the matrix.

Just for starters I recommend Don Patton's Fossil Record vid, also Thomas Kindall's Thermodynamic Evidence For Creation (where within about 10 minutes you can hear some absolutely devastating quotes from evolutionists admitting they know there's no evidence for their theory), Spike Psarris' Our Created Solar System, Incredible Creatures That Defy Evolution and Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. Off topic, but relevant to whether or not the Bible is reliable, also see Don Patton's Archaeology Searching For the Truth of the Bible, and most of all the vid Jesus and The Shroud of Turin.

If you have heard the Shroud was proven to be a fraud per carbon 14 testing on that vid you can see the very inventor of carbon 14 testing saying that the sample was invalid due to contamination. You will see a team of scientists who spent over 100,000 hours examining the Shroud, some secular, two jews, at least one atheist and one agnostic, agreeing on the following things: They have no clue how that image of a crucified man got on the Shroud, that it matches the NT description exactly, that it can't be duplicated with modern technology, and much else that is literally miraculous,

If you don't look at such materials then you have closed your mind and your eyes. I pray they will be opened. And that's all I have to say.
 
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Split Rock

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The above quote in my mind is insulting and degrading to Christians, also generally untrue, and therefore is "throwing mud." How long you have been on this site in relation to me is not any test of your, or my, belief systems, now is it?
It is not and was only directed to creationists, not Christians in general. You play the "victim card" well, however. :clap:

You also present creation believing Christians as being dishonest and stupid in this quote: "For most creationists the physical evidence means little to them. They were not convinced to reject evolution by the physical evidence, so they cannot be convinced to accept evolution by the physical evidence. That was my point."
Am I wrong? Yes or no, please. When did I suggest they are stupid? Dishonest?... to some degree, yes. It is dishonest to claim facts mean something, when they do not. I stand by that accessment, as a rule of thumb (there are exceptions).

You say you don't bash the Bible. Yes, indirectly, you do. Messiah made it clear that He believes in Adam and Eve and Noah as actual, historical, personages. You hint, vaguely, that you can dispel all the creation facts that the Bible supports with more "objective" information.
Once again, my issue is not with the bible, but with your flawed interpretation of the bible. Jesus, even if we take the gospels at face value, never made such a claim. He spoke in parables all the time. It is your interpretation that I find problematic, not the scriptures themselves.

I have presented tons of objective information. As for you, you go into the same category as RickG, someone I will no longer trade posts with because you wer not nice, but insulting, let's call it what it is, verbally abusive. As I told him, that is typical for evo supporters and I only debate with those who are civil and objective. I'll be praying for you too, though, praying that you will come into the full truth, but that if you do not that you will be kept from leading others away from it. BYE!
You are an excellent example of Psychological projection. See here: Search | Lifescript.com

You have come here and been nothing but argumentative and insulting, and have spend mcuh of your time accussing others of the same.

So long, and thanks for all the fish. :wave:
 
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Split Rock

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SPLIT ROCK

Oh, I missed one Q that I really should have addressed. :

"Let me ask you this: Do you reject evolution because of the physical evidence or because of your interpretation of scripture? Be honest."


Let me ask you some Qs: Do you reject creationism because of the physical evidence or because you just can't believe that what you've been told all your life isn't true? Do you reject creationism because you don't like thinking that the Bible is all that true, and therefore you can kind of pick and choose how you want to live based on what you like?

Did I ever ask you to believe anything based on the Bible? Didn't I say that evolution stands or falls based on science and logic alone? Yes, I have come to believe that the Bible absolutely is supported by.....reeeeal... science. I am a young earther. But that shouldn't even be a factor for you, what I believe or why.

The data. The data, my friend. Honest research on both sides about, the data. The data. That's where the truth lies. There is no contradiction between truth and YHWH, aka God, or between science and YHWH. But you will never see that unless you stop attacking believers and spend the time instead on really looking at these issues, really looking outside the box, outside the matrix.

.
I reject creationism, especially YEC, because the proponderance of the evidence has led mankind to the following conclusion:
1. All life on earth is related via common descent (including *gasp* humans).
2. The earth is very old (about 3.5 billion years).
3. The geological features of the Earth were not shaped via a global flood several thousand years ago.

That is what the data support.
 
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LoricaLady

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You are asking the wrong question. To prove your case, you should be looking for evidence that the remote ancestors of modern whales were whales identical to living whales, and that the remote ancestors of Ambulocetus also belonged to the genus Ambulocetus.

Consider this. You do not have to present evidence that you have (or had) a father and a mother and that you had grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.; that is an obvious biological fact. All life comes from life, so every living thing belongs to a lineage extending indefinitely far back into the past. If there was no evolution, we should find fossil ancestors of modern species that are identical to the modern species. We don't find this; there are no Eocene fossil apes, or Mesozoic whales, or Palaeozoic mammals or dinosaurs. Therefore there must have been changes in species; modern apes are descended from Eocene (and earlier) ancestors that were not apes; modern whales are descended from Mesozoic ancestors that were not whales; Mesozoic dinosaurs were descended from Palaeozoic ancestors that were not dinosaurs, etc..

I have presented this argument several times, but nobody appears to have tried to refute it, or even to have understood the argument. If I'm wrong, can somebody demonstrate the fact; if I'm right, you ought to accept it as compelling evidence for evolution.

My Qs were perfectly valid and like over a hundred before you, you have evaded them and changed the subject. It is perfectly valid to ask if there is any evidence that a hooved animal turned into a great whale. It is a logical fallacy to state that is true based on a minor similarity in its ear to that of whales.

Yes, life comes from life. Uh, how does that show that a great whale came from ambulocetus, anymore than it would show that a shark led to a dolphin when a shark has far more "similar homology", or similar shape, to a dolphin than ambuloetus has to a whale?

Even if I were an orphan who had no known parents, one could tell they were humans because I am a human! Ambulocetus was not a whale! A whale is not of the ambulocetus kind. Yeal, life comes from life. And what we see is that lifeforms come from very, very, very similar lifeforms.

As I said, there is no geologic column. As I showed in earlier quotes in purple, evolutionary scientists are admitting the so called geologic column and "transititons" are made up with subjectivity to try to stick to Darwinian ideas. Therefore your mention of different "geologic" periods is meaningless, in my opinion.

There is no ev-i-dence that ambulocetus led to a whale. You can change the subject all you want. You give out faith bytes, as above, like "whales are descended from" which show you believe in evolution, but when asked to present evidence for just one li'l ol' supposed "whale transition" fossil, you change the subject.
 
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Split Rock

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As I said, there is no geologic column. As I showed in quotes above, evolutionary scientists are admitting the so called geologic column and "transititons" are made up with subjectivity to try to stick to Darwinian ideas. Therefore your mention of different "geologic" period is meaningless, in my opinion.

False. We have most of the geological column right here in North Dakota:
https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/documents/Publication_List/pdf/MiscSeries/MS-66.pdf
The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota

Oh, and btw, most geologists don't care about "Darwinian ideas," and most of the geological column was established before Darwin wrote his book. Ritland, R. --- Historical Development of the Current Understanding of the Geologic Column: Part II

Now, lets see if you really can admit to mistakes, or if the data actually means anything to you...
 
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RickG

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RICKG I did not read you post because, as I have already stated, I only debate with those who are civil and objective, as opposed to insulting and falsely accusatory. My experience is that such people escalate in such verbally abusive behaviors, if not right away, then before very long. I don't have time for that. But I wish you well and have been praying for you. :) Bye!

From your first response to me:
Hitler said, "If you tell a lie over and over enough, people start to believe it." People have seen that poster of the fictitious Geologic Column over and over and just assume (as I once did) that it actually is based on scientific findings.
It ain't. How else have you been decieved? Rhetorical Q, however if you can't address, and answer, the Qs above, then you are seeing more about how.
And I'm hostile? You need to look in the mirror.
 
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LoricaLady

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SPLIT ROCK Okay, I'll bite one, very last, time. I can't resist this.

You say "The definition of a fish or tetrapod is entirely subjective." Sorry, friend, but not only is it a waste of time to "debate" with someone who is, well, verbally abusive to creation believers, it is also a waste of time to debate with someone who doesn't have a basic understanding of simple definitions.

Google: Definition of tetrapod. See the scientific definition, entirely objective and entirely not subjective: a four-footed animal, especially a member of a group that includes all vertebrates higher than fishes.

Google: Definition of fish: See the scientific definition, entirely objective and entire not subjective:
a limbless cold-blooded vertebrate animal with gills and fins and living wholly in water.

I pray you will learn to...think.

:prayer::prayer::prayer:
 
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LoricaLady

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ANYONE: If you are interested, here is the link to the quotes I mentioned earlier where world famous scientists, including some world famous evolutionists and even Nobel Prize winners, admit flat out that there is no evidence for transitional forms, or even for evolution for that matter. Some even refer to evolution as a kind of religion.

Again, before someone hollers "Quote mine", which is an accusation that a quote is out of context or misquoted, kindly give me the quote in context and show me how it is either out of context or not accurately stated.

And, just telling me "Well! Dr. Colin Patterson and Dr. Gould were evolutionists!" is not what I'm asking for. I already knew they were evolutionists. That's what makes their quotes so very fascinating! :)

These Quotes Reveal The Credulity Of Evolutionists
 
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lasthero

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The Geologic Column is a 19th century construct invented by George Lyell, a lawyer with bad eyesight. He never saw one and no one else has ever seen one either. If you talk to a very well qualified geologist he or she will admit (and you can see this on Google, too) that there really is no Geologic Column, though they will generally still try to support it as a theoretically good idea!

Also, to take a step back, you're confusing George Lyell with Charles Lyell, and while Charles Lyell was a lawyer, he also studied geology extensively. I also don't see what his eyesight had to do with it.
 
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LoricaLady

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Also, to take a step back, you're confusing George Lyell with Charles Lyell, and while Charles Lyell was a lawyer, he also studied geology extensively. I also don't see what his eyesight had to do with it.

Thank you for the reminder on what Lyell's first name actually was. You make another valid point. Being a lawyer does not disqualify someone from being science minded and perhaps a better geologist - if truly interested in the truth - than one formally trained. As for his eyesight, you got me there, too, perhaps. Maybe he was far sighted, I don't know, and could see geological formations well from a distance. Or whatever. Maybe not.

The thing he, is never saw a geologic column and yet he acted like a geologic column was gawd's truth scientific fact. If he saw one, kindly give me the documentation for that.

The quotes I gave at about page 2, in blue, show evolutionary scientists admitting to a lack of true scientific practices in supporting such an idea. As I have said over and over there are so called pre Cambrian life forms on all mountain tops, and other "earlier" forms to be found even in people's yards.

From what I have heard one can find "Jurrasic" dinosaur bones overflowing in the mountains of Montana.

Yeal, I know there are all kinds spins and excuses for these "disconformities", like upwards thrust of the mountains, etc. etc. But, since they have no evidence for any baseline whatsoever before the "thrust", or for the "thrust" itself, we're just seeing the usual - presumptions based on Darwinian...faith....presented as scientific fact.

Just because they report a geologic column, that doesn't mean there really is one because as I also said, they say things like "The strata are out of place in this one", i.e. there ain't any geologic column.

As I have tried to demonstrate in the quotes in The Credulity of Evolutionists, even some world famous evolutionists have said there are no transitional forms! So....if they don't buy it, why should I? Why should you?

I've studied evolutionary lit for years alongside of creation science information. My conclusion is that evolution is, indeed, a kind of religion, certainly not science.
 
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