No Literal Hell?

[RobertZ]

The unforgivable sin is attributing Christ's power to demonic forces.

In other words, rejecting Christ, even with the proof of miracles.

Skala, do you hold to annihilation or eternal suffering?

 

[If Not For Grace]

See my above post, yes it is completely Biblical because the Bible makes it very clear that the damned will suffer for eternity.

What I saw was those who "worship the beast & his statue. Under that theory there would be noeffect on those who died before the beast

 

[ashout]

acording to the mormons, people go to hell for up to a thousand years, unless you are a christian who is overcome by satan, at which point you are so heinous you go to hell forever with the devil and his angels.

 

[RobertZ]

acording to the mormons, people go to hell for up to a thousand years, unless you are a christian who is overcome by satan, at which point you are so heinous you go to hell forever with the devil and his angels.

The Mormons are wrong.

 

[RobertZ]

So does anyone else have any views to share on this subject? If so I would like to hear them, thanks.

 

[ashout]

there are people who sin by farting, their farts are rude and uncalled for. that's all they did. they will be tortured in hell for all eternity? or just for a little while? i mean, do you catch my drift? if you only sinned a LITTLE, should you suffer the same as those who sin GREATLY?

 

[RobertZ]

there are people who sin by farting, their farts are rude and uncalled for. that's all they did. they will be tortured in hell for all eternity? or just for a little while? i mean, do you catch my drift? if you only sinned a LITTLE, should you suffer the same as those who sin GREATLY?

Are you serious? Do you not realize that ONE sin is all that is needed for a person to be condemned to hell for all eternity? God doesn't put sin on a scale like that but what he will do is forgive someone of murder just as easily as he will forgive someone for theft.

By your own words your putting God on trial and I would advise against doing that.


BTW-passing gas isnt a sin, its a normal function of the body.

 

[ashout]

Are you serious? Do you not realize that ONE sin is all that is needed for a person to be condemned to hell for all eternity? God doesn't put sin on a scale like that but what he will do is forgive someone of murder just as easily as he will forgive someone for theft.

By your own words your putting God on trial and I would advise against doing that.


BTW-passing gas isnt a sin, its a normal function of the body.

I will think about your words some.

and just so you know, if you fart in someone elses presence, you are subjecting them to a foul odour, and THAT is a sin.

 

[RobertZ]

and just so you know, if you fart in someone elses presence, you are subjecting them to a foul odour, and THAT is a sin.

No it isnt, your being ridiculous brother.

 

[ashout]

No it isnt, your being ridiculous brother.

be on the safe side and hold in your farts when your around others. i mean, even if it ISNT a sin, that's just the nice thing to do. be a nice guy.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

So does anyone else have any views to share on this subject? If so I would like to hear them, thanks.

Here is some good reading on the subject of "hell". What I have noticed is that all preaching/teaching on eternal torment run to the same 4 or 5 scriptures that MIGHT support eternal torment while ignoring the VOLUMES of scripture that do not support it. I sit on the fence but lean towards annihilation because there is more scripture that supports annihilation than eternal torment.

The Exact Nature of Sheol, Hades and Hell.
http://http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/
Biblically Dispelling the Myth of Eternal Torture

Think about how often eternal life is contrasted with perishing and destruction. What do these words (perish, destruction) mean? What about the 2nd death. Is the 2nd death really death, or do those who experience remain conscious? I have studied the scripture diligently and lean towards annihilation but cannot completely rule out the possibility of eternal torment.

Note that annihilation theory does not do away with punishment of the damned, it just says that eventually the damned cease to exist.

 

[faceofbear]

I believe in a literal Hell with torments forever because I believe I deserve no less. I don't see how God would be a just God simply to annihilate me, if I were not saved. But I suppose He can do as He pleases.

 

[Studious One]

The second death, (the lake of fire) does not have the power to kill... only to hurt.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The word 'hurt' is translated from the Greek word 'adikeo.' The Greek word 'adikeo' is never translated as kill or killed.

We further see that the wicked are not killed when we read Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that the 'last enemy to be destroyed is death.'

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Notice that Paul did not say, 'second death.' Second death, (the lake of fire will not be destroyed. Second death will be the instrument that is used to destroy death.

Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that before the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, death and hell are cast in. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. The lake of fire destroys death. When the wicked are subsequently cast into the lake of fire, they can only be 'hurt' (Rev. 2:11) by the lake of fire, not killed by it for death has been destroyed.

They will experience eternal torment. They will have no rest for ever and ever.

 

[ashout]

The second death, (the lake of fire) does not have the power to kill... only to hurt.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The word 'hurt' is translated from the Greek word 'adikeo.' The Greek word 'adikeo' is never translated as kill or killed.

We further see that the wicked are not killed when we read Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that the 'last enemy to be destroyed is death.'

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Notice that Paul did not say, 'second death.' Second death, (the lake of fire will not be destroyed. Second death will be the instrument that is used to destroy death.

Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that before the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, death and hell are cast in. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. The lake of fire destroys death. When the wicked are subsequently cast into the lake of fire, they can only be 'hurt' (Rev. 2:11) by the lake of fire, not killed by it for death has been destroyed.

They will experience eternal torment. They will have no rest for ever and ever.

that was a good post, i learned some interesting things from it. good point, however my belief is that they will be tormented day and night for up to a thousand years after which they will be brought back to life.

 

[RobertZ]

that was a good post, i learned some interesting things from it. good point, however my belief is that they will be tormented day and night for up to a thousand years after which they will be brought back to life.

But your belief is nothing more than that "your belief" and it is completely in contradiction to what the Bible says. Doesnt that concern you?

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Studios One presents a great argument for eternal torment, but what about scripture that talks about death, perishing, and destruction of the wicked? I ran some searches on biblegateway and below is a select few. How are these to be explained?

Most supporters of eternal torment go to the greek and explain how such-and-such word doesn't really mean 'destruction' (although it's been translated 'destruction' for at least 400 years). Or they define what 'destruction' and 'death' mean, as well as what 'eternal life' mens so that it will not contradict the eternal torment teaching. But is this the right way to interprest scripture or are we shoe-horning scripture into our preconceived notions?

Why is there no mention of eternal torment in the OT? Progressive revelation? Progressive revelation is a weak argument. Progressive revelation attempts to toss out the OT as when understanding God's plan for the wicked. Is this a smart thing to do? I choose to look at ALL the scripture when I try to understand these things.


Then he said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Because you have let slip out of your hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore your life shall go for his life, and your people for his people.’” (1 Kings 20:42)

Is it not destruction for the wicked, And disaster for the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

For that would be a fire that consumes to destruction, And would root out all my increase. (Job 31:12)

But You, O God, shall bring them down to the pit of destruction;Bloodthirsty and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; But I will trust in You (Psalm 55:23)

Surely You set them in slippery places;You cast them down to destruction. (Psalm 73:18)

Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies (Psalm 103:4)

Sheol and Destruction are before the LORD; So how much more the hearts of the sons of men. (Prov 15:11)

Sheol and Destruction are never full; So the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20)

The destruction of transgressors and of sinners shall be together, And those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed. (Isaiah 1:28)

For yet a very little while and the indignation will cease, as will My anger in their destruction.” (Isaiah 10:25)

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. (Matt 7:13)

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Romans 9:22)

whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. (Phill 3:19)

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thess 1:9)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:36)

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt 3:12)

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matt 13:30)

 

[RobertZ]

Studios One presents a great argument for eternal torment, but what about scripture that talks about death, perishing, and destruction of the wicked? I ran some searches on biblegateway and below is a select few. How are these to be explained?

He addressed those subjects perfectly in his post, you must have missed what he said about death being cast into the lake of fire before the damned were cast in.

 

[Studious One]

Jesus said in the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

We see a contrast being presented here.

1. The wicked going into everlasting punishment
2. The righteous going into eternal life.

The same Greek word that is used to show the destiny of the wicked is also used to show the destiny of the righteous; that is the word 'aionios'.

The word is defined in the Greek as perpetual. This reveals to us that the punishment of the wicked will never end. It is never ending.

It is interesting to note also that the Greek word that the KJV translated 'punishment' was translated as 'paine', 'payne', and 'turment' in the earlier English versions; Coverdale, Bishops, Geneva, Wycliffe, Tyndalle, and others. The word 'punishment' was not used until 1611 and forward.

From what I can tell, 'aionios kolasis' is indeed eternal. If it were not, then we would have to say that 'aionios zoe' is also not eternal and Christ offers us no real hope for we, like the wicked will one day lose our life.

So what about the seeming 'hard verses'? The ones that denote destruction?

It may be wise to note that the word destruction does not necessitate annihilation. Sodom and Gomorrah were said to suffer destruction, yet Scripture reveals that Sodom and Gomorrah will suffer torment in the future. How can something that is destroyed suffer torment? Because it is not annihilated... it is brought to ruin.

 

[th1bill]

th1bill,

re: " ...and to, experientially, find out that Hell is real and that it is never ending."

Are you suggesting that "Finite Man" will be consciously tortured for all of eternity after death and hell are cast into the lake of fire? - That "Finite Man" will be given immortality and thus eternal life at the Great White Throne Judgement?

Remember... I limited the scope of the discussion? While, in no manor do I disagree that the lost man has an immortal soul, that is not dealt with in my statement.

 

[th1bill]

So do you believe in the unbiblical annihilation theory?

These boys will do well to pay attention to you but I would not count on it!