No Literal Hell?

OzSpen · May 19, 2011

rstats,

rstrats said:
re: "How can Jesus... say there will be everlasting/eternal/without end, punishment if the person is destroyed, dead?"
　
Because that is what the punishment consists of - everlasting/eternal/without end destruction and death.

That may be your doctrine, but this thread has made it clear with lots of Scripture by others and me, that this is not the teaching of the NT. I don't know how much exegesis of the text, including etymology of the word, "destruction", that we have to do to show that your understanding of "destruction" is not what the Bible states.

At death, the souls of unbelievers go to eternal punishment (Matt. 25:31-46; Rom. 2:5-10). It is conscious punishment. I cannot teach annihilation for unbelievers at death and be faithful to the Scriptures (see Rev. 14:11; 20:10).

If I backed my car over one of my child's favourite toys, I may have ruined or destroyed it. The crumpled toy was still there – to be ruined does not mean that I annihilated it. I did not obliterate it from existence. It was still present but of no further use as a toy. This is similarly what the Greek means by "apollumi." The body and soul in Gehenna have been ruined. We know from other places in the NT that this experience of the soul of unbelievers in hell is called, "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) – punishing that goes on forever. Everlasting punishment does not equate with annihilation.

Does the soul continue to exist between physical death and the resurrection? These verses teach that:

(1) Unbelievers:

- In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
- Are "under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:9);

(2) Believers:

- Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
- Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);
- Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);
- Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to "be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23);
- Who are martyred souls "cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord . . ." (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.

I know that there is a trend with some evangelicals to abandon the doctrine of eternal hell for this false teaching of annihilation, but that is not what the Bible teaches. See “Evangelicals and the annihilation of hell, Part 2”.

Sincerely, Oz

OzSpen · May 19, 2011

Mike,

Mikecpking said:
Ozpen,
The bible states the nephesh (translated as soul) dies in these 3 passages..This is from the bible.

Matthew 10:28 does not mean that. The word 'psuche' translated as 'soul' is also translated as 'life' and Jesus was stating that people who kill Christians for their faith ultimately could not take away eternal life. Even in the grave, the 'psuche' is bound up in the body until it decays to dust.

Soul in the bible never means the non physical part of a person, it means life, a breathing creture, the whole person or a even a corpse.

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "nephesh": 5315 nephesh neh'-fesh from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

You failed to give the three passages.

Your concept in trying to interpret Matt. 10:28 seems rather strange to me:

Matthew 10:28 does not mean that. The word 'psuche' translated as 'soul' is also translated as 'life' and Jesus was stating that people who kill Christians for their faith ultimately could not take away eternal life. Even in the grave, the 'psuche' is bound up in the body until it decays to dust.

Matt. 10:28 states:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (ESV)

If I am to interpret your way, this is what this verse states, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the life, but even in the grave this eternal life is bound up in the body until the body decays to dust".

This is strange doctrine indeed! The body begins to decay to dust, the moment it goes to the grave. There are Scriptures that fail to support your view, such as: "Absent from the body, present with the Lord".

Good try, Mike, but it doesn't work with consistent biblical interpretation.

Oz

DeaconDean · May 20, 2011

In this thread, there have been advocates that the soul is not immortal.

Question: If the soul is not immortal, where does it come from?

There are only two theories on this.

Do you advocate the Traducian theory?

Or do you advocate the Creation theory?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Mikecpking · May 20, 2011

OzSpen said:
rstats,
Does the soul continue to exist between physical death and the resurrection? These verses teach that:

(1) Unbelievers:

In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);

Are "under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:9);

(2) Believers:

Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);

Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);

Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);

Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to "be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23);

Who are martyred souls "cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord . . ." (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.

I know that there is a trend with some evangelicals to abandon the doctrine of eternal hell for this false teaching of annihilation, but that is not what the Bible teaches. See “Evangelicals and the annihilation of hell, Part 2”.

Sincerely, Oz

The bible teaches otherwise. Let the bible speak for itself

YouTube - ‪19. State of the Dead‬&rlm;

Martin Luther disagreed with your position and argued against the Catholic church's position:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm

http://www.christiantrumpetsounding.com/Soul/Reformation%20Faith.htm

DeaconDean · May 20, 2011

Mikecpking said:
The bible teaches otherwise. Let the bible speak for itself

YouTube - ‪19. State of the Dead‬&rlm;

Martin Luther disagreed with your position and argued against the Catholic church's position:

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Reformation Faith

So I take it that you are an advocate of the Traducian theory.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Mikecpking · May 20, 2011

DeaconDean said:
So I take it that you are an advocate of the Traducian theory.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No I am not!

From wikipaedia:
In Christian theology, traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul (or synonymously, "spirit"), in one of the biblical uses of word to mean the immaterial aspect of human beings (Genesis 35:18, Matthew 10:28). Traducianism means that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings. That is, an individual's soul is derived from the souls of the individual's parents.[1] This implies that only the soul of Adam was created directly by God (with Eve's substance, material and immaterial, being taken from out of Adam), in contrast with creationism (not to be confused with creationism as a belief about the origin of the material universe), which holds that all souls are created directly by God (with Eve's substance, material and immaterial, being taken from out of Adam).[2]
<<

A 'soul' is the the whole living person and had no prior existence.

Scripture is clear, Gen 2:7
Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

man became a soul, he did not get one! The Hebrews had no notion of an immaterial essence, large uses of the word 'nephesh' means the whole person or the life bound up in the body, but never something disembodied.

DeaconDean · May 20, 2011

Mikecpking said:
No I am not!

From wikipaedia:
In Christian theology, traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul (or synonymously, "spirit"), in one of the biblical uses of word to mean the immaterial aspect of human beings (Genesis 35:18, Matthew 10:28). Traducianism means that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings. That is, an individual's soul is derived from the souls of the individual's parents.[1] This implies that only the soul of Adam was created directly by God (with Eve's substance, material and immaterial, being taken from out of Adam), in contrast with creationism (not to be confused with creationism as a belief about the origin of the material universe), which holds that all souls are created directly by God (with Eve's substance, material and immaterial, being taken from out of Adam).[2]
<<

A 'soul' is the the whole living person and had no prior existence.

Scripture is clear, Gen 2:7
Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

man became a soul, he did not get one! The Hebrews had no notion of an immaterial essence, large uses of the word 'nephesh' means the whole person or the life bound up in the body, but never something disembodied.

Ok then you are an advocate of the Creation theory then.

How did Cain get his soul?

Explain this, Charles Hodge states:

...the original account of the creation there is a marked distinction made between the body and the soul. The one is from the earth, the other from God. This distinction is kept up throughout the Bible. The body and soul are not only represented as different substances, but also as having different origins. The body shall return to dust, says the wise man, and the spirit to God who gave it. Here the origin of the soul is represented as different flap and higher than that of the body. The former is from God in a sense in which the latter is not. In like manner God is said to form the spirit of man within him (Zech. xii. 1) to give breath unto the people upon the earth, and spirit to them that walk therein. (Is. xlii. 5.) This language nearly agrees with the account of the original creation, in which God is said to have breathed into man the breath of life, to indicate that the soul is not earthy or material, but had its origin immediately from God. Hence He is called God of the spirits of all flesh. (Num. xvi. 22.) It could not well be said that He is God of the bodies of all men. The relation in which the soul stands to God as its God and creator is very different from that in which the body stands to Him. God of the bodies of all men. The relation in which the soul stands to God as its God and creator is very different from that in which the body stands to Him. And hence in Heb. xii. 9, it is said, We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? The obvious antithesis here presented is between those who are the fathers of our bodies and him who is the Father of our spirits. Our bodies are derived from our earthly parents, our souls are derived from God.

Systematic Theology - Volume II | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

James P, Boyce wrote:

The soul exists without a body. Unquestionably it has not the body which it had on earth. But some have thought that it has some kind of a body, some spiritual body, which merely corresponds to, and is only thus identified with that of this life. But Paul's discussion of the resurrection shows, that the "spiritual" body is one that is to be raised out of the grave in which the natural body was buried, and that it is "at the last trump" that "the dead shall be raised," 1 Cor. 15:44, 52-54.

The condition is consequently one of an imperfect life. It is the life of the spirit only, and not that of the man. Human nature is composed of both body and spirit; and his body is as truly a part of a man as is his soul. The condition, therefore, in which disembodied spirits exist, is not that of perfect men, but only of human spirits. This, which is an inference which may be drawn from the two-fold nature of man, is supported by the manner in which the Scriptures refer to the persons in this intermediate state. They are not spoken of as "men," but as "souls," and "spirits." Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9; 20:4.

Another proof of this want of perfection of this condition is seen in the fact that the saints attain full entrance into their joy, and the wicked full infliction of their woe, only after the resurrection. Matt. 13:40-43, 49, 50; 25:34, 41, 46; 1 Cor. 15:44-54.

Both righteous and wicked have conscious life. This might have been inferred from the nature of spirit, which must always be in a state of conscious existence. But it is a plain teaching of the Bible. Luke 16:22-31. The word "Hades;" here means the place of departed spirits, and, as the scene occurs after the death of Lazarus, and before the final judgement, so must it be assigned to the intermediate state. In this the rich man is represented as in conscious torment.

The conscious condition of the righteous is taught in 2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 1:21-24; and also in the passages connected with Paradise. Luke 23:42,43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7; 22:2.

Neither the righteous nor the wicked are under probation in this intermediate state. Luke 16:22-31; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:11. Even if the language in 1 Pet. 3:19, 20 and 4:6 teaches, as some have taught, that our Lord went to the place of departed spirits, and preached to them; so that to those who had died up to the time of his death was given a probation in the gospel preached to them by him; that would be but a single instance of a favour shown to those who had died before his crucifixion; and, so far from proving a probation beyond the grave, would, from its exceptional character, imply the contrary.

Founders Ministries | Boyce's Abstract of Systematic Theology--Chapter 39

God Bless

Till all are one.

Mikecpking · May 20, 2011

DeaconDean said:
Ok then you are an advocate of the Creation theory then.

How did Cain get his soul?

Cain did not 'get' his soul. The Hebrew idea of 'soul' is of the following definitions:

THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

Explain this, Charles Hodge states:

Systematic Theology - Volume II | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

James P, Boyce wrote:

Founders Ministries | Boyce's Abstract of Systematic Theology--Chapter 39

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hi Deacon Dean,
Those theologians are mistaken to the true biblical definition of soul which is translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh'

Here is what the Jewish encyclopedia states and highlights the origin of the belief of the immortality of the soul:

"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection). Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended

Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL

What do you make of this verse?

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

DeaconDean · May 20, 2011

I get it now...

Everybody has it wrong but the Jewish theologians.

Those theologians are mistaken to the true biblical definition of soul which is translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh'

Here is what the Jewish encyclopedia states and highlights the origin of the belief of the immortality of the soul:

Nobody else is right, or can be right but their (Jewish Theologians) line of thought.

Well:

4. Soul. Next πνευμα takes on the meaning and function of -> ψυχὴ "soul". By virtue of its related character as the breath or principle of life. πνευμα is largely cotermious with ψυχὴ, and hince can be easily be used in place of it.
[*]

[*] It is noteworthy that the development of the Greek view of the soul was in the terms of "ψυχὴ" rather than "πνευμα". W. Jaeger, D. Theol. frahen griech, Denker (1953) esp. 88-106, 241 f., n63.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W, Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, 255 Jefferson, S. E., Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1974, Vol. VI, "πνευμα", p. 336, Eduard Schweizer commenting.

So if the soul is not immortal, then the spirit is not mortal.

I guess we have a quandry.

Man was not made in the image of God, foir God is triune, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Man is not, body, soul, spirit.

Scriptures lie to us, they are not infailible. Since they are not infailible, they are not trustworthy.

And since the soul/spirit will eventually die, both in this life and the life to come, why should we believe in Christ at all?

Just live our lives as we see fit because we will die a second death.

The Sadduces were right. (the soul is not immortal)

And Jesus was wrong for rebuking them for their line of thought.

Thanks, I just gave up Christianity.

And on the eve of the rapture too!

Thanks, think I'll go have a beer now.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Mikecpking · May 20, 2011

DeaconDean said:
I get it now...

Everybody has it wrong but the Jewish theologians.

Nobody else is right, or can be right but their (Jewish Theologians) line of thought.

Well:

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W, Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, 255 Jefferson, S. E., Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1974, Vol. VI, "πνευμα", p. 336, Eduard Schweizer commenting.

So if the soul is not immortal, then the spirit is not mortal.

I guess we have a quandry.

Man was not made in the image of God, foir God is triune, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Man is not, body, soul, spirit.

Scriptures lie to us, they are not infailible. Since they are not infailible, they are not trustworthy.

And since the soul/spirit will eventually die, both in this life and the life to come, why should we believe in Christ at all?

Just live our lives as we see fit because we will die a second death.

The Sadduces were right. (the soul is not immortal)

And Jesus was wrong for rebuking them for their line of thought.

Thanks, I just gave up Christianity.

And on the eve of the rapture too!

Thanks, think I'll go have a beer now.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hi Deacondean,
I would be happy to discuss it with you.

The truth is we believe in the resurrection of the dead.

The definition of soul being breath is faulty, becase that is 'spirit' as I posted earlier.

The Saducees did not believe in the resurrection!

What would be the point of a resurrection if we went straight to heaven?

phoenixdem · May 20, 2011

I am beginning to catch on to the theology of many Christians. In order to appeal to the younger generation, we must reinterpret the Holy Scriptures to make them more palatable to the masses.

If the Scriptures say an object is black, we must argue that in the original tongue the word meant white. We will disregard the Bible and language experts who translated the Scriptures from the original tongue. Well, the word actually means white unless the verse was written on a Jewish Holy Day which makes the word mean not white, but an off-white color.

If the Scriptures argue for a real Hell with flames, we must say there is no real Hell with eternal flames and punishment. We will call God a liar. He won't say anything. If we are pushed into a corner, we will admit there may be a Hell, but it will be more like a country golf club with perhaps, a few virgins as caddies.

If there are any other Christian beliefs that have been held by the early Fathers of the Christian Church and other Holy Men through the ages, those beliefs will have to go as well. If we do our jobs well enough, people will stop believing in the fairy tales of the Holy Bible, and we won't have to worry about going to that place of eternal punishment called Hell.

1Ti

4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils;

4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a

hot iron;

Of course, all of this doesn't apply to anyone here, right?

DeaconDean · May 20, 2011

phoenixdem said:
I am beginning to catch on to the theology of many Christians. In order to appeal to the younger generation, we must reinterpret the Holy Scriptures to make them more paladable to the masses.

If the Scriptures say an object is black, we must argue that in the original tongue the word meant white. We will disregard the Bible and language experts who translated the Scriptures from the original tongue. Well, the word actually means white unless the verse was written on a Jewish Holy Day which makes the word mean not white, but an off-white color.

If the Scriptures argue for a real Hell with flames, we must say there is no real Hell with eternal flames and punishment. We will call God a liar. He won't say anything. If we are pushed into a corner, we will admit there may be a Hell, but it will be more like a country golf club with perhaps, a few virgins as caddies.

If there are any other Christian beliefs that have been held by the early Fathers of the Christian Church and other Holy Men through the ages, those beliefs will have to go as well. If we do our jobs well enough, people will stop believing in the fairy tales of the Holy Bible, and we won't have to worry about going to that place of eternal punishment called Hell.

1Ti

4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils;

4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a
hot iron;

Of course, all of this doesn't apply to anyone here, right?

I agree.

It is a shame that one thinks that a word was interpreted in such a fashion by a group of people that it absolutely must be interpreted the same in every single other reference. That this is what it means, and it can't possibly mean anything else.

The same Jewish theologians who did not recognize Jesus, and still don't to this day, for who and what He was.

And a little FYI:

Sadduces-In opposition to the Pharisees...In distinction from the Pharisees, they denied: 1)The future resurrection and retribution in Sheol, asserting that the soul dies with the body (Mt. 22:23-33; Acts 23:8; Josephus Ant. 18 1.4.; War, 2. 8. 14)

Also:

Scribes- A public writer, especially the sacred writtings of the Hebrews, secretary, copier of the law, lawyers, teachers. They devoted themselves: 1) To the study and interpretation of the law, which it will be remembered was both civil and religious; and determining its application to the details of everyday life. The decisions of the great scribes became the oral law or tradition. 2) To the study of the scriptures generally in regard to historical and doctrinal matters;

Davis Dictionary of the Bible, 4th Edition Revised, Baker Book House, November 1983, Sadduces, p. 703, Scribes, p. 728

And again, the same Jewish Theologians who failed to see Isa. 53 in Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the carpenter.

Yep folks, the Jewish theologians are the only ones who got it right, all other theologians are wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Mikecpking · May 20, 2011

Hi Deacon Dean,
I think you miss the point. What do you think a 'nephesh' (soul) is?

How do you understand this verse?

Deuteronomy 12:23 (New International Version)

23 But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat.

What I highlighted in red is translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh' so you could say literally the soul is the bood.

DeaconDean · May 20, 2011

Folks, I'm done debating/arguing with the member above me.

I have presented my evidence over and over again showing that I believe the soul is eternal. Yet over and over again it is denied.

It is a fact that man was created in the very image of God. And since God is triune, man is also. (e.g.: body, soul, spirit)

Paul prayed for the Christians in Thessalonica saying:

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." -1 Thes. 5:23 (KJV)

The writer of Hebrews said:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." -Heb. 4:12 (KJV)

Soul and spirit being separat, and "joints and narrow" meaning body.

Folks, I will admit that I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it continues to exist after death, if somebody will admit that it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the soul dies at death.

But the irrefutable fact remains that taken as whole, the Bible, God's word, speaks more on the wrath, and eternal punishment of the wicked, unsaved, unrepentant, than it does of His love.

And Jesus Christ Himself, the God-man, said:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." -Mt. 25:46 (KJV)

"καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον." -Mt. 25:46 (GNT)

There is awaiting for the wicked "κόλασιν αἰώνιον" (punishment eternal), and for the saved "ζωὴν αἰώνιον" (life eternal).

Unless Jesus Christ, the God-man lied to us.

God Bless

Till all are one.

OzSpen · May 20, 2011

Mike,

What would be the point of a resurrection if we went straight to heaven?

For those who die before Christ's return, they are in the intermediate state and not the final state.

Oz

phoenixdem · May 20, 2011

DeaconDean said:
Folks, I'm done debating/arguing with the member above me.

I have presented my evidence over and over again showing that I believe the soul is eternal. Yet over and over again it is denied.

It is a fact that man was created in the very image of God. And since God is triune, man is also. (e.g.: body, soul, spirit)

Paul prayed for the Christians in Thessalonica saying:

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." -1 Thes. 5:23 (KJV)

The writer of Hebrews said:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." -Heb. 4:12 (KJV)

Soul and spirit being separat, and "joints and narrow" meaning body.

Folks, I will admit that I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it continues to exist after death, if somebody will admit that it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the soul dies at death.

But the irrefutable fact remains that taken as whole, the Bible, God's word, speaks more on the wrath, and eternal punishment of the wicked, unsaved, unrepentant, than it does of His love.

And Jesus Christ Himself, the God-man, said:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." -Mt. 25:46 (KJV)

"καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον." -Mt. 25:46 (GNT)

There is awaiting for the wicked "κόλασιν αἰώνιον" (punishment eternal), and for the saved "ζωὴν αἰώνιον" (life eternal).

Unless Jesus Christ, the God-man lied to us.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Proof is through faith and belief in the Word of God. Faith is a gift of God. Not all have faith, only a show of it. I certainly don't blame you for not discussing the matter anymore. There will always be those who believe and those who do.

Christ told His disciples to go out and spread the gospel. He also told them,

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when
ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

We can pray for those people, but their final fate is from God. We are just to spread the gospel.

OzSpen · May 20, 2011

phoenix,

phoenixdem said:
Proof is through faith and belief in the Word of God. Faith is a gift of God. Not all have faith, only a show of it. I certainly don't blame you for not discussing the matter anymore. There will always be those who believe and those who do.

Christ told His disciples to go out and spread the gospel. He also told them,

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when
ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

We can pray for those people, but their final fate is from God. We are just to spread the gospel.

I hope that you are not placing those who disagree with us on the nature of hell to be non-Christians.

Is that what you are suggesting? I'd like some clarification from you as to whether those who do not believe in a literal hell are Christian or not, from your perspective.

Thanks, Oz

phoenixdem · May 20, 2011

OzSpen said:
phoenix,

I hope that you are not placing those who disagree with us on the nature of hell to be non-Christians.

Is that what you are suggesting? I'd like some clarification from you as to whether those who do not believe in a literal hell are Christian or not, from your perspective.

Thanks, Oz

I cannot know the position of any man, i.e. saved or lost. I would have to be God to know that, and I am not.

OzSpen · May 20, 2011

phoenixdem said:
I cannot know the position of any man, i.e. saved or lost. I would have to be God to know that, and I am not.

You are missing my point. Can a person disagree with us on the nature of hell and still go to heaven?

In Christ, Oz

phoenixdem · May 20, 2011

OzSpen said:
You are missing my point. Can a person disagree with us on the nature of hell and still go to heaven?

In Christ, Oz

A person can disagree with us on any matter. We don't consign anyone to Hell. Let's see if I can put this into words that will satisfy you. Christ Himself told us about the nature of Hell. If anyone wishes to disagree with God on anything, he is free to do so. That is between that person and God. Do you think that you can send a man to Hell? I certainly don't think that I can do that. No sane person would. So, why do you think that I would do differently. Do I sound insane to you?

No Literal Hell?

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