no kneeling??!

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

No its not normal! I wouldn't go there then. Are you sure it was a Catholic Church? Doesn't sound Catholic to me. If it is a CC then there are abuses going on.

Maybe it wasn't Roman Rite?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

isabella1;

If it were me I would show respect for our Lord during the consecration and kneel on the floor if I had to (and have done in the past).

You would be showing disrespect for the Lord by showing disrespect for the congregation your visiting, who are standing. Love for each other is as equal as love for God, according to Jesus himself.

Also, we're not to draw attention to ourselves, as if we're more holy than our fellow Catholics who we are in communion with. If the congregation is standing, so should we, especially in light of the fact that it has already been pointed out, that there is a legitimate reason why this parish is standing, and its because they're in a temporary building where space doesn't allow for kneeling.

The new building will have kneeler's, as the pastor has stated.

When I have a chance to go to daily mass at a CC down the road from me (not my regularly attended parish), they hold mass in the chapel. There are no kneeler's there, no one has a problem with kneeling on the floor, and those that are elderly, usually bow down or sit and bow.

Fine, thats what the congregation is doing. However, I've been in situations were kneeling on the floor was impractical and the congregation stood.

The requirement for kneeling for the consecration has never been taken out or allowed to be a choice. It is the one place within the mass that all must kneel.

Actually, there are circumstances where standing is permitted and the case of this particular parish is one of them. Also, monastic orders are allowed to follow the norms set by their own order, which are approved by Rome. In many Benedictine Monasteries, they stand during the consecration. The Trappist Monastery where I go on my annual retreat, they stand.

The hand holding originated from (if anyone cares to know the history of the origination), AA. When in an AA meeting they would say the Our Father, everyone gathered in a circle and held hands to unite. It never came from within the Catholic Church. It came from a protestant tradition.

I'm not sure this is true. I believe it came out of the Marriage Encounter movement, back in the 70's, but even there, I'm not 100% sure.
What difference does it make, where it came from?

It still doesn't belong in the mass, and although people still ignore what the Church says and willingly does their own thing.

The Church hasn't issued any statement concerning holding hands during the Lords Prayer, as far as I know. Also, it would be the local Bishops who dictate the norms, unless Rome says otherwise.

The best policy is to be humble, and not draw attention to yourself or be a distraction for others.

Follow the norms of that Parish, for the Pastor, following the norms his Bishop has established, is the authority, not individuals who happen to visit the parish.

Jim

 

[Weird]

IT IS NORMAL!
In the eastren Catholic churches there is NO kneeling at mass! It is the resurection!

 

[Joshua G.]

It may seem ironic to have the Orthodox guy saying this, but we really do need to be sure we don't get hung up on this kind of stuff. It doesn't mean it's unimportnat, but it is not as importnat as not causing a stumbling block for your brethern. Paul speaks of that when he speaks of refraining from eating certain kinds of meat around certain people. I agree with JimR.

 

[AMDG]

IT IS NORMAL!
In the eastren Catholic churches there is NO kneeling at mass! It is the resurection!

Not for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. We kneel in awe, respect, and in homage. (Remember that quaint old saying--"the devil has no knees". I guess that means that the devil wouldn't be wanting to kneel in honoring God. Anyway, IMO one readily sees why the act of kneeling is considered important theologically.)

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

I finally went to my first non-monastery Catholic church today, St. Mark the Evangelist. I was a bit surprised, there was NO kneeling, at all... and I had always thought Catholics kneeled! They don't at the monastery but I thought that was just some Benedictine thing.

Is that normal?

Other than that I feel ambivalent about it. Pretty sure it is the biggest church I've ever been to, I found the singing really weird - and I found the singing at the Episcopal church I visited a couple of weeks ago really weird, too. A couple times at an Orthodox church and everything else just seems weird!

It doesn't seem Catholic to me either. You might want to check the Catholic Church directory for a Catholic Church in your area:
U.S. Catholic Parishes Online Directory and Mass Times
Good Luck, patience is a virtue, and may God Bless you on your journey.

Cardinal Newman

 

[Anhelyna]

IT IS NORMAL!
In the eastren Catholic churches there is NO kneeling at mass! It is the resurection!

Weird

I don't know how many Eastern Catholic Churches you have been to - but yes - on Sundays the theory is that it's a Resurrection day - so yes we don't kneel [ as I said much earlier in the thread ] BUT in some places they do kneel - in some places in Ukraine they even kneel during the Gospel.

My own parish is a mixture of those who kneel and those who don't . Being honest the only time I'm not on my feet is for the Homily since I read the Epistle and Gospel in English .

Mind you if I go Latin and have to be in the body of the Kirk rather than at the back - then I sit , or stand as do the locals

 

[Joshua G.]

Anhelyna.... when you normally talk do you refer to the CHurch as a Kirk? that's awesome.

 

[Anhelyna]

Sorry - Scottish expression - the body of the Kirk is where the congregation sit [ and the Kirk is usually the Protestant Church here ] but the expression for the nave seems to have caught on generally.

FYI - St Giles regarded as THE Church of Scotland Church in Edinburgh is , I believe , officially called the High Kirk of St Giles

 

[Aesjn]

I'm of mostly Scottish heritage so "kirk" seemed perfectly normal to me.


Thanks for the replies everyone... What bothers me is, is basically that kneeling is what the Roman church is supposed to be doing according to their teaching... even if I hate it and makes my legs hurt.

 

[Fantine]

Different cultures often adopt different postures of worship, and so I don't think that there is anything inherently more respectful about kneeling than there is about standing, or sitting, or bowing. Westerners' idea that it is more respectful is culturally based.

I understand that in group worship it is good to sing, speak, stand, sit, kneel, etc. in unison. It is a sign of our unity as Catholics. But if a church I attended decided to leave kneeling out of the picture entirely, I wouldn't miss it one bit, and I wouldn't feel as if I were being less reverent.

When I pray alone I usually sit in the most comfortable chair in the house, because that's where I feel really relaxed and reflective, peaceful and still. Kneeling on my almost six decades old knees can be very distracting.

As it is, I frequently play the organ at church, and one of the few perks I get is freedom from kneeling. Hallelujah.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Different cultures often adopt different postures of worship, and so I don't think that there is anything inherently more respectful about kneeling than there is about standing, or sitting, or bowing.

If I asked you to kneel before me, I suspect I would get a different response then if I only asked if you would stand or sit in front of me. So, yes, I think there is a big difference between these things.

"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Philippians 2: 9-10)

If at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, how much more reason do we have to bend our knee before Jesus who is truly and substantially present in every tabernacle and at every consecration during the Mass? Jesus is just as present in the Eucharist as if He were walking down the aisle at Mass. Imagine meeting Jesus face to face because, in fact, we do meet Him face to face every time we go to Mass, and then imagine what you would do.
.

 

[FullyMT]

I'm of mostly Scottish heritage so "kirk" seemed perfectly normal to me.


Thanks for the replies everyone... What bothers me is, is basically that kneeling is what the Roman church is supposed to be doing according to their teaching... even if I hate it and makes my legs hurt.

Technically a practice. There is no "teaching" about kneeling as a doctrine, so it can change for pastoral or cultural reasons.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Okay-

Kneeling isn't required during the Mass. It is just the norm, including in the dioceses of the United States.

If you go to a Mass and people aren't kneeling, it doesn't mean they aren't Catholic or they are some crazy liberals. If you go to a place where many of the people are elderly, they will likely have no kneelers. Since most people will be unable to, it shows greater unity just to have no one kneel.

 

[Joshua G.]

Sorry - Scottish expression - the body of the Kirk is where the congregation sit [ and the Kirk is usually the Protestant Church here ] but the expression for the nave seems to have caught on generally.

FYI - St Giles regarded as THE Church of Scotland Church in Edinburgh is , I believe , officially called the High Kirk of St Giles

I know Kirk means Church, but in common speech, you don't use it in place of Church but rather to refer to a specific area of the church. Right?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Technically a practice. There is no "teaching" about kneeling as a doctrine, so it can change for pastoral or cultural reasons.

Yes, as a discipline, it can change. But as long as the Church teaches that we should do it, we should do it unless for the reasons the Church says that we would not need to do it. If one is humble, they shoudn't have a problem with kneeling down before the Creator of the universe. He was able to humble Himself for us even unto death on a cross, so why do so many of us complain that we have to kneel before Him? We should do like the Nike commercial and just do it. The Church is not asking us to do something unreasonable.
.

 

[FullyMT]

Yes, as a discipline, it can change. But as long as the Church teaches that we should do it, we should do it unless for the reasons the Church says that we would not need to do it. If one is humble, they shoudn't have a problem with kneeling down before the Creator of the universe. He was able to humble Himself for us even unto death on a cross, so why do so many of us complain that we have to kneel before Him? We should do like the Nike commercial and just do it. The Church is not asking us to do something unreasonable.
.

yup

 

[AMDG]

Okay-

Kneeling isn't required during the Mass. It is just the norm, including in the dioceses of the United States.

According to the GIRM, it is. In the entire Latin Rite, kneeling is required during the Consecration (and it was granted by the Pope when the Bishops of the United States requested that kneeling be allowed during the entire Eucharistic Prayer). The people are allowed to kneel, sit, or stand during the entire time the people receive Communion even though many dioceses indicate that standing is the norm. Also the Bishop decides whether or not the people of his diocese kneel or not after the Agnus Dei (check the GIRM). And I believe the GIRM indicates that there be a bow (a sign of reverence) if one receives Communion standing (does not kneel while receiving).

As always, kneeling (or standing) is not necessary if the person is old or infirmed. And of course, kneeling is not necessary if there is lack of room. (I wonder if it is the case that a profound bow is called for at the Consecration. Don't know.)

If kneelers aren't available, one could always kneel on the floor, but I've been to a number of churches (and makeshift ones too) and there are kneelers that attach to folding chairs. I also know that if kneelers are not provided, and one is preferred, portable kneelers are sold at EWTN catalog store or a pillow might do.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

According to the GIRM, it is. In the entire Latin Rite, kneeling is required during the Consecration (and it was granted by the Pope when the Bishops of the United States requested that kneeling be allowed during the entire Eucharistic Prayer). The people are allowed to kneel, sit, or stand during the entire time the people receive Communion even though many dioceses indicate that standing is the norm. Also the Bishop decides whether or not the people of his diocese kneel or not after the Agnus Dei (check the GIRM). And I believe the GIRM indicates that there be a bow (a sign of reverence) if one receives Communion standing (does not kneel while receiving).

As always, kneeling (or standing) is not necessary if the person is old or infirmed. And of course, kneeling is not necessary if there is lack of room. (I wonder if it is the case that a profound bow is called for at the Consecration. Don't know.)

If kneelers aren't available, one could always kneel on the floor, but I've been to a number of churches (and makeshift ones too) and there are kneelers that attach to folding chairs. I also know that if kneelers are not provided, and one is preferred, portable kneelers are sold at EWTN catalog store or a pillow might do.

They should kneel. That doesn't mean they are 'required'.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. - GIRM 43

 

[isabella1]

According to the GIRM, it is. In the entire Latin Rite, kneeling is required during the Consecration (and it was granted by the Pope when the Bishops of the United States requested that kneeling be allowed during the entire Eucharistic Prayer). The people are allowed to kneel, sit, or stand during the entire time the people receive Communion even though many dioceses indicate that standing is the norm. Also the Bishop decides whether or not the people of his diocese kneel or not after the Agnus Dei (check the GIRM). And I believe the GIRM indicates that there be a bow (a sign of reverence) if one receives Communion standing (does not kneel while receiving).

As always, kneeling (or standing) is not necessary if the person is old or infirmed. And of course, kneeling is not necessary if there is lack of room. (I wonder if it is the case that a profound bow is called for at the Consecration. Don't know.)

If kneelers aren't available, one could always kneel on the floor, but I've been to a number of churches (and makeshift ones too) and there are kneelers that attach to folding chairs. I also know that if kneelers are not provided, and one is preferred, portable kneelers are sold at EWTN catalog store or a pillow might do.

Exactly! !!!!!
And it has already been posted a couple of times on here too. I don't understand what the problem is in people accepting what the Church teaches on this.

Here is some good reading info on the hand holding question.
_______________________________________________________
Re: Holding Hands during the Our Father
In his book, Mass Confusion, Jimmy Akin says the following:

“The Holy See has not ruled directly on this issue. In a response to a query, however, the Holy See stated that holding hands “is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics” (Notitiae 11 [1975] 226, DOL 1502 n. R29). For this reason, no one can be required to hold hands during the Our Father.”
(Nor is the orans posture in the rubrics.)

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)—Discouraged
(Mass Confusion Appendix Three pg. 234)

In the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal the only posture specified during the Our Father is standing.
GIRM: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...isromanien.htm
(paragraphs 43 and 160)

Recommended reading:

Article: “About that Orans Position”…
http://www.adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html

Book: Mass Confusion by Jimmy Akin
http://shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/S...html?E+scstore

________________________________________________
ORIGINS OF HAND-HOLDING

The current issue of the "Adoremus Bulletin" says this in response to a query from a priest in the Bronx:

"No gesture for the people during the Lord's Prayer is mentioned in the official documents. The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some 'charismatic' groups took up the practice."

My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.

Periodically, on "Catholic Answers Live" I am asked about hand-holding during Mass and explain that it is contrary to the rubrics. Usually I get follow-up e-mails from people who say, "But it's my favorite part of the Mass" or "We hold hands as a family, and it makes us feel closer."

About the latter I think, "It's good to feel close as a family, but you can hold hands at home or at the mall. The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside."

About the former comment I think, "If this is the high point of the Mass for you, you need to take Remedial Mass 101. The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity."