no kneeling??!

[fragmentsofdreams]

We express our unity in our shared purpose and faith, not in conformity of expression.

 

[Joshua G.]

Well, actually some asked Rome and the answer came down in a Dubium that they didn't mean to restrict us "to the letter" and it is really our choice to kneel, sit, or stand. (In the old GIRM, the U.S. Bishops actually received an indult from Rome to kneel during the entire Eucharistic prayer--not just at the Consecration as is the rule in the universal Church. In 2002, when the new GIRM came out, some places wanted us to only stand, so Rome was questioned about it and we were allowed to follow our conciences in this.)

As to the "handholding", it's not forbidden in the GIRM and nothing is said about it if it is voluntary and sort of "spur of the moment", however it does seem a little bit "inappropriate". Receiving the Eucharist is the main symbol of our unity--not holding hands. (Maybe when the new translation comes out, they'll move the "kiss of peace" Our Father--where the handholding usually takes place--to another part of the Mass so it won't overshadow Jesus' unity.)

Sources of this is the GIRM (naturally) and several articles on www.adoremus.org.

SO the Vatican used to rule throught he GIRM that all Catholics (Eastern and Western) -since you said the Church Universal - should kneel during the Eucharistic prayer? I have a feeling I misunderstood something.

What is the GIRM?

I guess I don't see how holding hands overshadows the Eucharist, but I suppose I would be among those not sad to see it go were I Catholic only because of my personal disposition (not for any theological or liturgical issue).

I am a HUGE supporter of the When in Rome policy. For example, we are to stand during the entire liturgy by custom and I agree with this custom (in the Eastern context). But if I visit a parish and they go up and down like a western parish, I am going up and down with them regardless of what is "Orthodox" and with a smile. If I ever get to the point that sitting down or touching a hand or kneeling at the "wrong time" in someone else's home get in the way of me worshiping God, then I have other issues and am hung up on the wrong things (and I have had to recognize these problems before and they are entirely personal for me).

However, if I am in my home, then I will follow my conscience which tells me to act as my bishop and priest would expect me to act generally speaking. so if I know I should stand and 80% of the Church sits, I will stand if I feel that is what is best for me because... I have to go there every week. I just think that in someone else's parish, house rules.

That may, however, just be what I need to keep myself humble.

By the way, I am not among the best of standers and there are many times I am with that "weak" 80% that sits and I don't lose sleep about that and I don't think anyone else should either unless they did it to be uncourteous or a rebel or to attention to themselves. I agree with you that as important as all of that stuff is, it is, in the end, personal. I was just offering the standing as an example.

Joshua

 

[AMDG]

SO the Vatican used to rule throught he GIRM that all Catholics (Eastern and Western) -since you said the Church Universal - should kneel during the Eucharistic prayer? I have a feeling I misunderstood something.

Believe that the Eastern rite doesn't kneel, but has both bows and profound bows. Pretty sure that standing during the Eucharistic prayer is the norm of the Latin rite universal Church (except for the Consecration--and then the indult that the Bishops of the U.S. were granted.) Long, long after Vatican II, there were some places that decided for themselves (in disobedience) that they would refuse to kneel at all. Some people were quite distressed. Then in 2002, the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) was revamped to make the postures clear. Only problem with that is that the rules seemed not to make it clear whether we stood or knelt and it appeared that the indult of the U.S. wasn't mentioned. A question went out to the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith and Cardinal Arinze answered.

What is the GIRM?

The General Instructions of the Roman Missal. It contains the instructions (rubrics) on how a Mass is to be said--postures and all. Not only does following the GIRM insure that we all are on "the same page" and is orderly, everything in the Mass has a specific theological meaning that was carefully researched and discussed by the Bishops and Cardinals in union with the Pope. Used to be found in the Sacramentary (a book used on the altar at Mass.)

I guess I don't see how holding hands overshadows the Eucharist, but I suppose I would be among those not sad to see it go were I Catholic only because of my personal disposition (not for any theological or liturgical issue).

Every legitmate posture is mentioned in the GIRM (the rubrics). When something is mentioned in it, and I believe we should be very careful to observe. Handholding was very carefully not mentioned either for or against--it is not an oversight. It is simply a personal issue--some people do it, while others don't, but there is no theological reason for the practice (unlike other portions of the Mass.)

I am a HUGE supporter of the When in Rome policy. For example, we are to stand during the entire liturgy by custom and I agree with this custom (in the Eastern context). But if I visit a parish and they go up and down like a western parish, I am going up and down with them regardless of what is "Orthodox" and with a smile.

I attend different parishes and evidently others do too. I remember one particular time when there were a number of different parishes attending that particular Mass. Of course, we were all were doing what we thought was proper. The problem was that the different parishes must have all been saying the Mass differently and try as we may, in the building that day, the postures were quite different and it was crazy looking and very distracting . (It looked like popcorn with people standing, no--sitting, then jumping up again, then sitting again--all within five seconds from each other and so it went all through the Mass.) The thing is, it needn't have been--if we just followed the rubrics that Rome had already given us. IMO, that is humbling too. IMO, that is obedience.

Oh, lest you get the wrong idea, it has always been proper for the elderly or sick to simply sit if they need to.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I dont mean this at ALL as a criticism but I was just curious, is this tradition based on an ancient one or is it moreso developped recently in an effort to express the Church as family?

The Eucharist expresses our unity as the family of God much better than hand holding. One Bread, One Body.

Someone else in this thread made the comment that holding hands isn't specifically prohibited, but my problem with it is that it causes unnecessary confusion. Because it is not something that is taught that we should be doing, some do it while others don't. And every time I go to Mass, I have to worry about what to do during that awkward moment. And I don't think its right to feel socially pressured to do something that isn't even taught by the Church. But having said that, if someone offers me their hand, I will take it but only not to seem impolite.

It is interesting that the swine flew scare motivated people to stop wanting to hold hands.

As far as the OP and the question of kneeling. In the Latin rite, unless there is a real physical reason that we can't do it, we are required to kneel regardless of whether or not there is a kneeler available. It is much more comfortable to kneel on a padded kneeler than on a hard floor. But kneeling on a hard floor can be a good way to express our penance.
.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, I sent an email to the pastor, Fr David DeJulio on the issue, and he kindly sent me a reply.

Dear Jim,

Thank you for your question! It is right that Catholics usually kneel during the Consecration if there is adequate space to do so. Unfortunately, the space in which we worship presently is not our permanent Church and arrangements were made to fit a large congregation into a space that was given. Thus, the space limitation in our current space hampers our ability to kneel at this time. However, when our new Church gets built in the future, it will have kneelers to accommodate the congregation.

It sounds like a great parish with a great pastor.


Jim

 

[Tigg]

SO the Vatican used to rule throught he GIRM that all Catholics (Eastern and Western) -since you said the Church Universal - should kneel during the Eucharistic prayer? I have a feeling I misunderstood something.

What is the GIRM?

I guess I don't see how holding hands overshadows the Eucharist, but I suppose I would be among those not sad to see it go were I Catholic only because of my personal disposition (not for any theological or liturgical issue).

I am a HUGE supporter of the When in Rome policy. For example, we are to stand during the entire liturgy by custom and I agree with this custom (in the Eastern context). But if I visit a parish and they go up and down like a western parish, I am going up and down with them regardless of what is "Orthodox" and with a smile. If I ever get to the point that sitting down or touching a hand or kneeling at the "wrong time" in someone else's home get in the way of me worshiping God, then I have other issues and am hung up on the wrong things (and I have had to recognize these problems before and they are entirely personal for me).

However, if I am in my home, then I will follow my conscience which tells me to act as my bishop and priest would expect me to act generally speaking. so if I know I should stand and 80% of the Church sits, I will stand if I feel that is what is best for me because... I have to go there every week. I just think that in someone else's parish, house rules.

That may, however, just be what I need to keep myself humble.

By the way, I am not among the best of standers and there are many times I am with that "weak" 80% that sits and I don't lose sleep about that and I don't think anyone else should either unless they did it to be uncourteous or a rebel or to attention to themselves. I agree with you that as important as all of that stuff is, it is, in the end, personal. I was just offering the standing as an example.

Joshua

Nice post.

To me, it is showing respect. I too will do what is going on (when in Rome...) unless what is being done goes so against my grain. An example quite some time ago some parishes used dance etc which I did not care for. I attended some other mass without the dancing and leaping around the alter.

I do see the Church having to set rules, maybe differing in Europe and in US (don't know as I haven't been to Europe, a sad commentary for me) as if the Church didn't have rules, I could see some chaos and hard feelings etc. It is amazing how upset parishioners get when norm isn't followed. I remember when Father lifted his hands in praise and joy when singing. Ya would have thought the church was gonna be struck by lightning or satan had entered or something. Those people who objected got used to it and no our Bishop didn't intervene as many hoped. Another for instance, like the pew I sit in. It is mine. Mine, I tell you.

 

[Gwendolyn]

SO the Vatican used to rule throught he GIRM that all Catholics (Eastern and Western) -since you said the Church Universal - should kneel during the Eucharistic prayer? I have a feeling I misunderstood something.

What is the GIRM?

General Instruction of the Roman Missal - so no, it does not apply to the Eastern rites. They have their own liturgical practices and canons governing their individual rites.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

LivingWordUnity;

Someone else in this thread made the comment that holding hands isn't specifically prohibited, but my problem with it is that it causes unnecessary confusion. Because it is not something that is taught that we should be doing, some do it while others don't.

If its done by the community as a whole, it doesn't cause confusion, but I'll admit, it causes irritation for some who happen to be visiting the parish and are opposed to it.

At my parish, which is a very small country parish, we always hold hands at every Mass. When I first move there, it was new for me, but was a nice gesture and so, I now hold hands as does my family.

However, when visiting other parishes, I follow what they do.


Jim

 

[LivingWordUnity]

LivingWordUnity;



If its done by the community as a whole, it doesn't cause confusion, but I'll admit, it causes irritation for some who happen to be visiting the parish and are opposed to it.

At my parish, which is a very small country parish, we always hold hands at every Mass. When I first move there, it was new for me, but was a nice gesture and so, I now hold hands as does my family.

However, when visiting other parishes, I follow what they do.


Jim

Did they keep holding hands during the swine flew scare?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Did they keep holding hands during the swine flew scare?

Yes, we did.

They also continued to offer the Precious Blood at Mass.

Some people seemed uneasy about offering the sign of peace, but then as they learned that the outbreak was over-blown, they relaxed about it.

In all, I don't get too hung up on such trivial matters. Christ is present whether we hold hands or don't.

Whats in the hearts of the faithful is what matters and that was the real spirit of Vatican II.

Jim

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Yes, we did.

They also continued to offer the Precious Blood at Mass.

Some people seemed uneasy about offering the sign of peace, but then as they learned that the outbreak was over-blown, they relaxed about it.

In all, I don't get too hung up on such trivial matters. Christ is present whether we hold hands or don't.

Whats in the hearts of the faithful is what matters and that was the real spirit of Vatican II.

Jim

You said that people seemed uneasy about offering the sign of peace. Did they also seem uneasy about holding hands during the swine flew scare?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You said that people seemed uneasy about offering the sign of peace. Did they also seem uneasy about holding hands during the swine flew scare?

Actually, I should've explained better, sorry.

The parish I was attending where the people seemed uneasy offering the sign of peace, was not my parish, and at this parish, they do not hold hands during the Lords Prayer. Its a larger parish with a Cathedral style church building.

At my small home parish(seats only @150 people), people seemed indifferent to the swine flue threat.

Jim

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Actually, I should've explained better, sorry.

The parish I was attending where the people seemed uneasy offering the sign of peace, was not my parish, and at this parish, they do not hold hands during the Lords Prayer. Its a larger parish with a Cathedral style church building.

At my small home parish(seats only @150 people), people seemed indifferent to the swine flue threat.

Jim

I think the parish size has a lot to do with it. At the large parish, a lot of the people who were there were probably like you, away from their own parishes. With the small parishes, people have a much better chance to get to know each other so the social atmosphere is often more friendly.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think the parish size has a lot to do with it. At the large parish, a lot of the people who were there were probably like you, away from their own parishes. With the small parishes, people have a much better chance to get to know each other so the social atmosphere is often more friendly.

Actually, my parish has more visitors than the larger parish.

The town I live in, has 6 lakes(ponds actually), with many visiting campers. Also surrounding the parish property, is a private high-school with many foreign students.

People tend to go along with what the congregation does, and in my parish, we hold hands during the Lords Prayer. This includes the pastor at the altar with the Lector and Deacon.

So, what are you going to do, refuse the outreached person's hand next to you?

Jim

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Actually, my parish has more visitors than the larger parish.

The town I live in, has 6 lakes(ponds actually), with many visiting campers. Also surrounding the parish property, is a private high-school with many foreign students.

People tend to go along with what the congregation does, and in my parish, we hold hands during the Lords Prayer. This includes the pastor at the altar with the Lector and Deacon.

So, what are you going to do, refuse the outreached person's hand next to you?

Jim

That's interesting. Maybe it's because it has become the cultural norm to hold hands, and people feel more inclined to do it because of the smaller cozy atmosphere. But anyway, what I do is if it looks like someone is reaching over to me then I will hold their hand. But if they make no effort to reach, then I won't reach their way.
.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That's interesting. Maybe it's because it has become the cultural norm to hold hands, and people feel more inclined to do it because of the smaller "cozy" atmosphere. But anyway, what I do is if it looks like someone is reaching over to me then I will hold their hand. But if they make no effort to reach, then I won't reach their way.
.

I generally follow the same rule of thumb as you do.



Jim

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hmm, now I feel kinda upset. I have been in a rather atheistic mood lately... but I've felt drawn to go to church the last few days, and when I went it just felt "wrong" somehow. I wish I had gone to a church that was doing things the way they're supposed to.

Try a different parish.
It might be big, but in the Catholic Church, kneeling is mostly required.
NOW - i will say that at my kids school, in the summer, the priest uses the 'school cafeteria' because the Church gets too hot.
And the cafeteria has a stage with an altar and is set up to be used in lieu of using the Church.
[its a small town]

Anyway - when we don't have kneelers [rarest of occasions for the CC] we are commited to stand during the Eucharistic Blessing [et al]

But if your legs hurt, try to relax a bit on the seat behind you while kneeling. [which is what i do because of my back and legs]

A devout Catholic friend of mine theorized (and read) that this western/estern difference was that in the West you always kneeled before a king and in the East you always stood before royalty? Has anyone else read or heard that?

Interesting. I wondered about that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I used to hold hands with my family...
During the Our Father.

I decided to stop doing that - and I actually find that I am more able to concentrate on the prayer now. Before it was all about hurrying up to get my kids attention to so we would all have hands...

And it was an anxiety for me.
NOW i really don't worry about anything and I can put myself more into the Prayer.

That's just my thoughts. I didnt feel i would like not holding hands, but i really do prefer it now.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

WarriorAngel;

Try a different parish.

Why?

The pastor himself provided a perfectly legitimate reason as to why they don't currently kneel, and that the Church they are planing to build, will have kneeler's.

Why discourage a person from attending such a vibrant parish ?



Jim

 

[isabella1]

If it were me I would show respect for our Lord during the consecration and kneel on the floor if I had to (and have done in the past). When I have a chance to go to daily mass at a CC down the road from me (not my regularly attended parish), they hold mass in the chapel. There are no kneeler's there, no one has a problem with kneeling on the floor, and those that are elderly, usually bow down or sit and bow.

The requirement for kneeling for the consecration has never been taken out or allowed to be a choice. It is the one place within the mass that all must kneel.

The hand holding originated from (if anyone cares to know the history of the origination), AA. When in an AA meeting they would say the Our Father, everyone gathered in a circle and held hands to unite. It never came from within the Catholic Church. It came from a protestant tradition.

It still doesn't belong in the mass, and although people still ignore what the Church says and willingly does their own thing. It took me a long time to come to terms with this, because I too, felt there was nothing wrong with it. But if you really want to know the truth, you have to be willing to also say what you are currently doing may be wrong also. Sandpaper never felt good to me, but it sure cleaned me up.

I encourage whoever wants to know, to look it up, and study what the Church teaches about it. This way you will find the truth to your answer, and not someones opinion on it.