no kissing before marriage?!?

[lawtonfogle]

First off for the person who said intamincy is a requirement. I have quite a few choice words, but they will be made on the assuption that by dating you mean you are looking for one to marry, not just for fun, but neither do you think it is courting, where you think this is the one. Also, by intamicy, you mean having a close relatoinship. NOT physical intamincy.

Ok, for the choice words. Intamicny, as I have described above, is not required in a dating relationship, as I have described above, but is requried in a courting relationship, as I have described above. The point is, being intimant is not about being physical, but instead about talking about things you do not talk about to the normal person. It is a vital part of comunication. (see choice words do not mean something bad)

Now, if you mean physical intimancy, instead of the type I have above described, then you are sadly mistaken. Why do I say sadly, becuase sadness and pain will end up feeling your relationships if this is what you beleive. I will tell you this, you do not have to touch someone to love them.

Now concerning Kissing. Alot is based on the motive, but basically, I see nothing wrong with kissing as long as it has a reason, as long as it is not kissing just to kiss. But for reasons.... Hmmm.... I can't think of any besides being married. But maybe later I will come up with some. Now the same I reply to hugging, but reasons for hugs can be found much easier, but usauly involve trying to comfort someone, which means something bad must have happened, so I would not wish a reason to be.

And thanks for that bit of info on the relative verses legalistic. Just one question, ever heard of post-modernism?

 

[non-religious]

[lawtonfogle]

Now concerning Kissing. Alot is based on the motive, but basically, I see nothing wrong with kissing as long as it has a reason, as long as it is not kissing just to kiss. But for reasons.... Hmmm.... I can't think of any besides being married. But maybe later I will come up with some. Now the same I reply to hugging, but reasons for hugs can be found much easier, but usauly involve trying to comfort someone, which means something bad must have happened, so I would not wish a reason to be.

I respect your opinion lawonfogle, but boy do I vehemently disagree with you. What your saying may work for you, but for those of us in the real world I would argue differently. The fact that you utterly failed to mention a reason (a reason ) to kiss, speaks volumes in regard to the point your failing to put across. Since when does there have to be a legitimate reason to kiss your partner? Or even hug them?

Na, I'm sorry but there is nothing wrong with kissing or hugging your wife or husband to be. Unless your someone who seriously lacks self-control or has some form of sex addiction, then kissing is perfectly acceptable and normal.

 

[ebia]

First off for the person who said intamincy is a requirement. I have quite a few choice words, but they will be made on the assuption that by dating you mean you are looking for one to marry, not just for fun, but neither do you think it is courting, where you think this is the one. Also, by intamicy, you mean having a close relatoinship. NOT physical intamincy.

Ok, for the choice words. Intamicny, as I have described above, is not required in a dating relationship, as I have described above, but is requried in a courting relationship, as I have described above. The point is, being intimant is not about being physical, but instead about talking about things you do not talk about to the normal person. It is a vital part of comunication. (see choice words do not mean something bad)

Now, if you mean physical intimancy, instead of the type I have above described, then you are sadly mistaken. Why do I say sadly, becuase sadness and pain will end up feeling your relationships if this is what you beleive. I will tell you this, you do not have to touch someone to love them.

Now concerning Kissing. Alot is based on the motive, but basically, I see nothing wrong with kissing as long as it has a reason, as long as it is not kissing just to kiss. But for reasons.... Hmmm.... I can't think of any besides being married. But maybe later I will come up with some. Now the same I reply to hugging, but reasons for hugs can be found much easier, but usauly involve trying to comfort someone, which means something bad must have happened, so I would not wish a reason to be.

I presume that lot was aimed at me.

When I said "dating", I mean with someone you are considering as possible partner. By intimate I am refering to both the physical and non-physical. The point of dating and courtship is to build a relationship and to find out if you really are "right" for each other, in every sense. Finding out to what extent you are physically compatible is part of that.

Some things (eg having children) are best reserved for inside marrage, and the advantages of that are clear. You can make a strong case for sex. Beyond that, you need to make a case for anything else being out of bounds.

Now, I really can't see why feel physical touching needs to be saved, and doing so is likely (in my opinion) to be unhelpful. It is highly common for each person in a couple to want different amounts of (non-sexual) physical contact. Generally women find kissing, hugging, etc (outside of sex) much more important than men. So finding out if you are on the similar wavelengths on this is as important as anything else. If one of you can't cope with touching without needing sex, that is something you both need to know NOW.

The more you "ban" the more people go into marrage blind, and the more unhappy and/or failed marrages result. Maybe that is why marrage between conservative christans doesn't have a better success rate than amongst many other groups.

Which is better - some physical contact before marrage, or a divorce (or worse, an unhappy marrage)?

 

[lummoxcooties]

Since when does there have to be a legitimate reason to kiss your partner? Or even hug them?

Maybe you just phrased your question strangely, but this seems kinda weird. There should always be a reason for everything we do. Kissing someone should be out of love (not lust, or physical pleasure), whether or not it is within marriage. The same goes with intercourse. According to your philosophy, a person doesn't need any reasons to have any loving/sexual encounter with a partner.

I understand that kissing is far from having children, but it is still an act of love. If we have no reason for doing it, then we are just throwing our lips around.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Interesting thread and some interesting replies, to be sure.

I don't think there is anything wrong with kissing (yep, including french-kissing or somewhat extended kisses) before marriage. Since I don't think you should bother dating someone if there is absolutely no prospect of marriage, then I have no problem with kissing anyone you're dating if it is what I would say is good dating.

Kissing can be a very romantic thing. It can be a very positive thing. I see no reason to keep it within marriage, unless it involves heavy petting or is seriously tempting to sex before marriage.

 

[non-religious]

[lummoxcooties]Maybe you just phrased your question strangely, but this seems kinda weird. There should always be a reason for everything we do. Kissing someone should be out of love (not lust, or physical pleasure), whether or not it is within marriage. The same goes with intercourse. According to your philosophy, a person doesn't need any reasons to have any loving/sexual encounter with a partner.

I understand that kissing is far from having children, but it is still an act of love. If we have no reason for doing it, then we are just throwing our lips around.

Of course there is a reason behind any action one takes, but please..... If you think I'm suggesting that people should or can go around "throwing their lips about" then your obviously missing the point entirely. Furthermore, I don't know where you got that ridiculous idea from. I said, that in the context of a loving or stable relationship there doesn't have to be a reason for kissing or hugging your partner. Did I anywhere specify what type of kiss or in what circumstances the kiss would take place? No, I didn't. If you have ever been in a relationship then you would know exactly when kissing was appropriate or not. For example, if someone has an issue with self control (something I mentioned in the post that you obviously ignored) then perhaps kissing would be something that a person may wish to avoid doing.

My reason for kissing my wife prior to our getting married was obvious, I wanted to be intimate and affectionate. I had no problem with self control and physical pleasure whether you like it or not plays as important part of kissing (or at least it can). Those who advocate non-kissing or even hugging have their right to do so, but if I choose not to follow that path it doesn't make me any less Christian than you...

Also my post was in response to the comments someone else made that I felt were kinda extreme.

 

[non-religious]

Here's an interesting scenario..... I'm sitting with my girlfriend and I really feel like I want to kiss her. I turn to her and say "Darling, I'm going to kiss you, but before I do let's think seriously about why we should kiss. Let's examine all the possible reasons because kissing you without a reason is wrong, perhaps even sinful and I don't want to go to hell."

Or


Reasons for kissing your partner:

1) You love her
2) You find her attractive
3) You want to share the taste of your chewing gum
4) Your a grown adult and know that a kiss is just a kiss
5) You enjoy kissing
6) It's a pefectly normal thing to do
7) You want to be spontanious
8) Your going to spend the rest of your life with her, better check to see if she's a good kisser

Any more reasons?

 

[ebia]

Any more reasons?

To find out if she has bad breath?

 

[Onesimus85]

I am currently reading Sex and the Supremacy of Christ by John Piper and Justin Taylor. They have an interesting view that I agree with, and... it makes sense. Here is a selection that I would like to contribute to the discussion:

"Now I expect that some readers are wondering, 'Are you saying couples should refrain from kissing or holding hands until marriage?' I am not trying to draw a new set of boundaries that should not be crossed. That misses the point. Rather, I am suggesting that all of us need to rethink the purpose and meaning of physical intimacy between a man and a woman, and I think that the best way I can make this point is to look at it practically, from the other side of the marriage vows. All of the things that dating couples engage in physically, short of intercourse, married couples engage in too. The only difference is that a married couple has a name for this activity. They call it foreplay. So while the unmarried console themselves by saying, 'This is okay, because it is not sex,' the married couple says, 'This is great, because it is a part of sex.' The fact is, that God not only created sexual intercourse, he created the things that lead up to sexual intercourse too. And they are all linked together. Foreplay is a one-way on-ramp onto the highway of sexual intercourse. In our cars, we are not meant to slow down on the on-ramp, and we are not meant to go backwards. That is not what on-ramps are designed for. They are meant to get the car up to speed. So it is with foreplay. God designed foreplay to get a man and a woman up to speed. And it works. So if you are not married, what are you doing on the on-ramp? It is not meant to be a place where you hang out in idle, revving your engines, but not going anywhere,"(Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, 140).

I think that this is a very good point, and a very good illustration as well. The entire book is great. It has a ton of scripture references and even goes into the Greek text with some of the passages. It isn't a lofty language though, it is very practical. It also comes with a DVD. Cheap too for you college students.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

But I think that this is based on the fallacy that kissing is inherently sexual, which it is not. Kissing is a form of affection that two people engage in. Furthermore, sexual actvity can take place without kissing being involved.

 

[Joykins]

Furthermore, sexual actvity can take place without kissing being involved.

Indeed. Better get that kissing in before marriage because you may not get so much of it after.

 

[ebia]

I am currently reading Sex and the Supremacy of Christ by John Piper and Justin Taylor. They have an interesting view that I agree with, and... it makes sense. Here is a selection that I would like to contribute to the discussion:

"Now I expect that some readers are wondering, 'Are you saying couples should refrain from kissing or holding hands until marriage?' I am not trying to draw a new set of boundaries that should not be crossed. That misses the point. Rather, I am suggesting that all of us need to rethink the purpose and meaning of physical intimacy between a man and a woman, and I think that the best way I can make this point is to look at it practically, from the other side of the marriage vows. All of the things that dating couples engage in physically, short of intercourse, married couples engage in too. The only difference is that a married couple has a name for this activity. They call it foreplay. So while the unmarried console themselves by saying, 'This is okay, because it is not sex,' the married couple says, 'This is great, because it is a part of sex.' The fact is, that God not only created sexual intercourse, he created the things that lead up to sexual intercourse too. And they are all linked together. Foreplay is a one-way on-ramp onto the highway of sexual intercourse. In our cars, we are not meant to slow down on the on-ramp, and we are not meant to go backwards. That is not what on-ramps are designed for. They are meant to get the car up to speed. So it is with foreplay. God designed foreplay to get a man and a woman up to speed. And it works. So if you are not married, what are you doing on the on-ramp? It is not meant to be a place where you hang out in idle, revving your engines, but not going anywhere,"(Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, 140).

I think that this is a very good point, and a very good illustration as well. The entire book is great. It has a ton of scripture references and even goes into the Greek text with some of the passages. It isn't a lofty language though, it is very practical. It also comes with a DVD. Cheap too for you college students.

If you think the only role of kissing, cuddling, and other intimate contact is as foreplay, then I feel sorry for your partner.

If it were, the author might have a point. But it isn't, so his entire argument falls in a heap.

 

[swingnscream]

Here's an interesting scenario..... I'm sitting with my girlfriend and I really feel like I want to kiss her. I turn to her and say "Darling, I'm going to kiss you, but before I do let's think seriously about why we should kiss. Let's examine all the possible reasons because kissing you without a reason is wrong, perhaps even sinful and I don't want to go to hell."

aw that's sweet of you. ...or something. Gotta love those extremist, but a stand one side or the either of this kind of issue really is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. Even at that, kissing or not kissing before marriage isn't going to be a sin ...it maybe something that weighs on your moral ego but definitely not sinning. Lust is the sin, and as Jesus pointed out lust isn't always the things marked with a big No across them...sometimes it's the little things that we figure no one else will know about or care about. But that's something each person has to figure out between themselves and God ...before you get there cuz as great as a line as that is, it's probably not the best to get another date with ...let alone a kiss.

Since when does there have to be a legitimate reason to kiss your partner?

that does sound strange and your witty list really doesn't help it sound less strange either.

Some ppl think that intercourse isn't really any big deal but a kiss is special; other think that a kiss isn't a big deal but intercourse is special, but basically I'd have to lean towards the statement from the book:

The fact is, that God not only created sexual intercourse, he created the things that lead up to sexual intercourse too. And they are all linked together.

Again, it doesn't become a sin "to kiss or not to kiss", but at least to consider the fact that is more than mere skin to skin, that it actually does mean something. To give credit to that alone is better than saying who cares.

 

[IntimateFriend]

"And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the lOrd Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." Col.3:17