Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
You cannot reject or receive a cause, though. You can only reject or receive an effect. What effect is that in the afterlife is what I would like to know.pjw said:i think the orthodox belief is that for those who of their own free will reject this love, it will be pain. for those who receive it, it will be bliss.
the effect that is rejected is the salvation offered in Christ to all who believe and accept it.You cannot reject or receive a cause, though. You can only reject or receive an effect. What effect is that in the afterlife is what I would like to know.
But then that would mean God continues to offer salvation in Christ after death.pjw said:the effect that is rejected is the salvation offered in Christ to all who believe and accept it.
Jon_ said:But then that would mean God continues to offer salvation in Christ after death.
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
Precisely. So it seems that Orthodoxy's eschatology necessarily leads to universalism.Erinwilcox said:Which would then mean that the true religion of the world would be
universalism.
Jon_ said:Precisely. So it seems that Orthodoxy's eschatology necessarily leads to universalism.
Only if you presume that everyone will willingly yield themselves to God's consuming fires. We know that not everyone will yield themselves to this love because Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's infinite wrath against sin and trying to resist God's unrelenting justice.Jon_ said:Precisely. So it seems that Orthodoxy's eschatology necessarily leads to universalism.
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
Cappadocian said:We know that not everyone will yield themselves to this love because Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's infinite wrath against sin and trying to resist God's unrelenting justice.
It is my opinion that all humans will experience the divine light in this way. You have been warned, so you must now repent!
Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin. in Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.Ummm. . . The Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's wrath and justice?In all of the churches that I have ever been to, the Calvinists are the ONLY ones who actually preach/discuss/teach about God's wrath against sin and his unrelenting justice. However, your view of unrelenting is different from ours. By God's unrelenting justice, we mean that He will punish the unjust/unconverted forever in Hell. He will not relent in His punishment of them. However, WE know that God's justice, while unrelenting, took the just punishment away from those who are saved and put in on His Son, Jesus, when He died on the cross. So, the justice of God against the sins of the elect was turned from them but His justice didn't just disappear, it went to Christ who paid for our sins in full. Unlike what you seem to be believe, we don't believe that God will turn His wrath against the elect. Why don't we believe this? Because He has already turned His wrath against Jesus.
I don't see what WE have to repent of in our theology concerning this issue, my friend.
pjw said:Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin. in Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.
. . . and this is accomplished by yielding ourselves to the operation of God's infinite wrath against sin. The Orthodox Christian is one who says to God: "You are so beautiful, I'd sooner be eaten by you than fed by anyone else." To the Orthodox Christian, God plants a lion's kiss and replies: "Dearest daughter, I knew you would not be long in coming to me. Joy shall be yours."pjw said:Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin.
In Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.
You're not understanding. We look at things from a Western scholastic mindset, Orthodox look at things from an Eastern mystical mindset. There is no pain, suffering, or tears for those who are saved and who enjoy the love of God. There is pain, suffering and tears for those who refuse to accept the love of God. Nothing could be more painful than knowing God is offering His love and salvation through Christ, but the person being proud and arrogant refuses to accept it.A love where there is pain, suffering, and tears too? That's not what my Bible teaches. What about the verse in Revelation that I already posted?
pjw said:You're not understanding. We look at things from a Western scholastic mindset, Orthodox look at things from an Eastern mystical mindset. There is no pain, suffering, or tears for those who are saved and who enjoy the love of God. There is pain, suffering and tears for those who refuse to accept the love of God. Nothing could be more painful than knowing God is offering His love and salvation through Christ, but the person being proud and arrogant refuses to accept it.
What is "this love"?Cappadocian said:Only if you presume that everyone will willingly yield themselves to God's consuming fires. We know that not everyone will yield themselves to this love . . .
Resist God's wrath? I welcome it. Resist God's justice? I welcome it.Cappadocian said:. . . because Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's infinite wrath against sin and trying to resist God's unrelenting justice.
Again, what is the effect of this "divine love"? This is a pretty ambiguous phrase. It does not really say much.Cappadocian said:It is universalist only if you presume that people will choose to be transfigured by divine love when they find themselves in the presence of God.
This is a false analogy. Jesus Christ had a human body, God does not. Moreover, Jesus entered the world for the purpose of being crucified. God the Father will not deign to humiliate himself in such a manner. For it is written, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess." And by then it will be too late.Cappadocian said:We know that this is not true, because we humans did not allow ourselves to be pacified by the presence of God but instead crucified him.
Another assertion that God's love will be painful (for some). What does this mean? How can a volition cause pain? Why is it painful after death but not before? What effect does this love cause that creates such pain? More importantly, where in Scripture is any of this even alluded to?Cappadocian said:Orthodoxy is NOT universalist, nor does its eschatology "ultimately lead to" universalism. Those who would prefer to keep their sin will experience the bath of God's love as painful . . .
This is nothing but speculation.Cappadocian said:. . . with a pain quite beyond what our sensibilities will presently endure.
This does not follow.Cappadocian said:The deepest, highest, truest, fittest, most wholesome suffering must be generated in the wicked by a vision, a true sight, more or less adequate, of the hideousness of their lives, of the horror of the wrongs they have done.
I already have. You are speaking to the choir.Cappadocian said:It is my opinion that all humans will experience the divine light in this way. You have been warned, so you must now repent!
Then she is still painting a caricature of Calvinism.pjw said:Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin. in Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.
Westminster Larger Catechism Question #1 said:What is the chief and highest end of man?
Answer: Mans chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever.
They can keep the mysticism, thank you very much.pjw said:You're not understanding. We look at things from a Western scholastic mindset, Orthodox look at things from an Eastern mystical mindset.
This is unscriptural. We are called to suffer with Christ. Pain, suffering, and tears are a part of being a Christian. Paul writes in the second epistle to Timothy, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2:12 AV). In the next chapter he says, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (3:12 AV).pjw said:There is no pain, suffering, or tears for those who are saved and who enjoy the love of God.
God does not offer salvation or salvific love to the reprobate; therefore, what you are talking about here is inapplicable.pjw said:There is pain, suffering and tears for those who refuse to accept the love of God. Nothing could be more painful than knowing God is offering His love and salvation through Christ, but the person being proud and arrogant refuses to accept it.
no-one's saying they're not in Hell. the Hell that they're in is their own refusal to accept God's love through Jesus Christ, and separation from God.ErinWilcox said:Okay, I think I understand it now. But does God really continue to offer His love to the reprobate for all eternity? If so, where are the reprobate (if not in hell) while He's offering it?
i wasn't talking about mysticism, i was talking about a mystical mindset, i.e. looking at things in a spiritual and mysterious way, not a scientific, scholastic, and analystic way.Jon_ said:They can keep the mysticism, thank you very much.
I'm talking about the resurrection, our eternal life will be bliss, enjoying the love and presence of God. I don't know any Calvinist who doesn't teach this.This is unscriptural. We are called to suffer with Christ. Pain, suffering, and tears are a part of being a Christian. Paul writes in the second epistle to Timothy, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2:12 AV). In the next chapter he says, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (3:12 AV).
i'm merely stating what the Orthodox belief is. I think all Protestants acknowledge that Hell is eternal separation from God, spiritual darkness and torment.God does not offer salvation or salvific love to the reprobate; therefore, what you are talking about here is inapplicable.
i'm merely stating what the Orthodox belief is.
That's what I was talking about, too.pjw said:i wasn't talking about mysticism, i was talking about a mystical mindset, i.e. looking at things in a spiritual and mysterious way, not a scientific, scholastic, and analystic way.
Oh, my mistake. The sense of "post-resurrection" wasn't entirely clear.pjw said:I'm talking about the resurrection, our eternal life will be bliss, enjoying the love and presence of God. I don't know any Calvinist who doesn't teach this.
Are you sure you really are stating Orthodox belief, though? It might be best if we heard from Cappadocian or other professing Orthodox Christians, so as to avoid attacking a straw man.pjw said:i'm merely stating what the Orthodox belief is. I think all Protestants acknowledge that Hell is eternal separation from God, spiritual darkness and torment.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?